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The biggest irony lies in the fact that in most traditional companies managers (people who manage developers) are usually the people who were never smart enough

The biggest irony lies in the fact that in most traditional companies managers (people who manage developers) are usually the people who were never smart enough to make it as developers in the first place. My company does this all the time. Didn't do well enough at the job interview or you're a total bozo and poor at understanding technical concepts/writing code? No problem! They'll appoint you as a project manager and you will get a team of developers to manage. At the same time, the brightest and the best engineers rarely get promoted because they are keeping their heads down and actually getting shit done. And there is little incentive for the company to promote such people because they lose a skilled and productive programmer if they do that (they don't care about anything except for how fast you can crank out code - one of the typical ailments of consulting companies). It's a very sad state of affairs. Makes me want to quit really.

danpat 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle
- aangjie 14y ago
  http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...
melling 14y ago
Yes, and they get to give you lots of work then go home. Meetings and checklists for them. Plus, every now and then they get to explain how to do your job to you. It's kind of weird. I've been doing this for 20 years. I was wondering if anyone else noticed.
seivan 14y ago
true, I've experienced that as well. The morons who wrote shitty code, made project managers.
speeder 14y ago
I know a huge bank that had problems that every developer they promoted, quit. It was because their managment positions were so stressful and so communication heavy, that most developers were totally not suited for it, and just plainly quit.
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  Technical types tend to think that there's not much to the task or process of motivating and managing a team. The people that promote individuals into management roles are often just as naive. The individuals are expected to develop new skills simply by virtue of having been promoted.
jaredmcateer 14y ago
It's a fallacy to believe that good developers should make good managers and vice versa. I've had great managers that haven't written a line of production worthy code in their life, I've had horrible managers that were genius developers. Companies without a technical career path create bad managers because great developers that should go on to be Principle Engineers and Architects have no choice but to get into HR in order to advance their career even if they aren't fit for it.
- ritchiea 14y ago
  You'd have to be a good developer who wants to be a good manager, or a good manager who is smart and cares enough about technology to absorb a lot and obsess about the details. I think the implication here is even if you have those traits the opportunity doesn't exist at most companies.
  - blablabla123 14y ago
    There are people saying this (more or less): leaders can be used in a any field, even a field they don't know. Being a technical person, I used to doubt this too. But having seen to many bad managers in such a short time, I believe it's true. When you are senior enough, in a small company, you don't need a technical supervisor. You just need someone you can trust, who gives you political backup and who will evaluate you on your results.
iomike 14y ago
sometimes gifted devs are horrible managers.
seestheday 14y ago
Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but to me project manager != manager. I have run both PM & dev teams, and often PM's are paid far less than dev's. In a lot of cases I wouldn't consider a move from being a dev to a PM to be a promotion in any sense. A proper Manager who is coaching his staff, performing performance reviews, ensuring the team has all the resources needed to do their jobs as efficiently as possible, protecting the team from unnecessary bullshit meetings/interruptions, etc is a completely different story.
benihana 14y ago
Speaking as a developer I have to say the arrogance in this post is very disturbing. It reeks of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and can't understand the challenges people other than developers face. To think that managers are people who aren't as smart as you are, or are people who couldn't hack it as a developer is ridiculous and naive and arrogant. If your job is that shitty, and you're that smart and good, quit and find a better job.
- bad_user 14y ago
  And in fact the amount of shit that corporate developers are protected from is phenomenal. Getting shit out of the way of developers is the job of these managers. Now of course, some companies are better or worse than others, some managers are better or worse than others and so on. Personally I don't see myself a manager because I lack the social skills. In some days I barely remember to do minor things like sending out an email to my team at the end of the day or ask about the status of some roadblock.
  - codeonfire 14y ago
    Developers are supposed to be grateful that managers protect them from shit from even dumber and insane managers above them? Nope. Why not just fire those insane managers slinging shit everwhere.
    - sokoloff 14y ago
      It's not that black and white. Ofttimes, what looks like meaningless corporate bullshit to a developer looks like valuable fertilizer to some other part of the organization, or to a regulatory body, or to something else that makes the company go. "looks like" phrasing was intentional here. I was a damned good developer back in the day, and am working on being a good manager (of managers at this point). There is an insane amount of red tape that sprouts up over time in any large assembly of people. Some of it has some positive purpose somewhere; some of it has no evident purpose. The best managers seek to protect their teams from unnecessary BS, but that doesn't necessarily mean eradicating it from the company. Shielding can be just as effective locally, at a tiny fraction of the cost.
freehunter 14y ago
So all it takes to be a manager at your company is to bomb the job interview? I could use a pay raise, which company do you work for?
lifeguard 14y ago
The Peter Principle is a belief that, in an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "Employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." In more formal parlance, the effect could be stated as: employees tend to be given more authority until they cannot continue to work competently. It was formulated by Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull in their 1969 book The Peter Principle, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle This should be required reading: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Essential_Drucker.html?id=YzbDcrHo0LMC http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Essential_Drucker.ht...

danpat 14y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

aangjie 14y ago
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...

melling 14y ago

Yes, and they get to give you lots of work then go home. Meetings and checklists for them. Plus, every now and then they get to explain how to do your job to you. It's kind of weird. I've been doing this for 20 years. I was wondering if anyone else noticed.

seivan 14y ago

true, I've experienced that as well. The morons who wrote shitty code, made project managers.

speeder 14y ago

I know a huge bank that had problems that every developer they promoted, quit. It was because their managment positions were so stressful and so communication heavy, that most developers were totally not suited for it, and just plainly quit.

fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
Technical types tend to think that there's not much to the task or process of motivating and managing a team. The people that promote individuals into management roles are often just as naive. The individuals are expected to develop new skills simply by virtue of having been promoted.

jaredmcateer 14y ago

It's a fallacy to believe that good developers should make good managers and vice versa. I've had great managers that haven't written a line of production worthy code in their life, I've had horrible managers that were genius developers. Companies without a technical career path create bad managers because great developers that should go on to be Principle Engineers and Architects have no choice but to get into HR in order to advance their career even if they aren't fit for it.

ritchiea 14y ago
You'd have to be a good developer who wants to be a good manager, or a good manager who is smart and cares enough about technology to absorb a lot and obsess about the details. I think the implication here is even if you have those traits the opportunity doesn't exist at most companies.
- blablabla123 14y ago
  There are people saying this (more or less): leaders can be used in a any field, even a field they don't know. Being a technical person, I used to doubt this too. But having seen to many bad managers in such a short time, I believe it's true. When you are senior enough, in a small company, you don't need a technical supervisor. You just need someone you can trust, who gives you political backup and who will evaluate you on your results.

iomike 14y ago

sometimes gifted devs are horrible managers.

seestheday 14y ago

Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but to me project manager != manager. I have run both PM & dev teams, and often PM's are paid far less than dev's. In a lot of cases I wouldn't consider a move from being a dev to a PM to be a promotion in any sense. A proper Manager who is coaching his staff, performing performance reviews, ensuring the team has all the resources needed to do their jobs as efficiently as possible, protecting the team from unnecessary bullshit meetings/interruptions, etc is a completely different story.

benihana 14y ago

Speaking as a developer I have to say the arrogance in this post is very disturbing. It reeks of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and can't understand the challenges people other than developers face. To think that managers are people who aren't as smart as you are, or are people who couldn't hack it as a developer is ridiculous and naive and arrogant. If your job is that shitty, and you're that smart and good, quit and find a better job.

bad_user 14y ago
And in fact the amount of shit that corporate developers are protected from is phenomenal. Getting shit out of the way of developers is the job of these managers. Now of course, some companies are better or worse than others, some managers are better or worse than others and so on. Personally I don't see myself a manager because I lack the social skills. In some days I barely remember to do minor things like sending out an email to my team at the end of the day or ask about the status of some roadblock.
- codeonfire 14y ago
  Developers are supposed to be grateful that managers protect them from shit from even dumber and insane managers above them? Nope. Why not just fire those insane managers slinging shit everwhere.
  - sokoloff 14y ago
    It's not that black and white. Ofttimes, what looks like meaningless corporate bullshit to a developer looks like valuable fertilizer to some other part of the organization, or to a regulatory body, or to something else that makes the company go. "looks like" phrasing was intentional here. I was a damned good developer back in the day, and am working on being a good manager (of managers at this point). There is an insane amount of red tape that sprouts up over time in any large assembly of people. Some of it has some positive purpose somewhere; some of it has no evident purpose. The best managers seek to protect their teams from unnecessary BS, but that doesn't necessarily mean eradicating it from the company. Shielding can be just as effective locally, at a tiny fraction of the cost.

freehunter 14y ago

So all it takes to be a manager at your company is to bomb the job interview? I could use a pay raise, which company do you work for?

lifeguard 14y ago

The Peter Principle is a belief that, in an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "Employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." In more formal parlance, the effect could be stated as: employees tend to be given more authority until they cannot continue to work competently. It was formulated by Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull in their 1969 book The Peter Principle, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle This should be required reading: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Essential_Drucker.html?id=YzbDcrHo0LMC http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Essential_Drucker.ht...