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> in that they aren't advantages you have just because of your race/class/gender. Clearly not – they are advantages that are atypical to my race and starting c

> in that they aren't advantages you have just because of your race/class/gender. Clearly not – they are advantages that are atypical to my race and starting class, but entirely typical to a great many of the people I've encountered in my work. That's what was interesting to me about the exploration. > but you wouldn't be successful in tech without the hard work part. I completely agree. I'll put it to you like this: I may have run in the race, and that was all my effort, but someone needed to first put me on plane for me to even compete.

cantastoria 14y ago
I'll put it to you like this: I may have run in the race, and that was all my effort, but someone needed to first put me on plane for me to even compete. Sure, but they worked hard to be able to put on that plane. That you recognized the opportunity and took it is a tribute to you and them. It sounds like you're the product of a lot of hard work (and maybe a little luck). Why minimize that by calling it privilege? It does a disservice to you and those who've helped you.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Well, that's the important point about this. It is privilege because not everyone got parents who gave a damn. Not everyone got parents who would bother to teach them things or buy them a computer. Some people just aren't getting those things in their lives. And as long as that's true, these things are privileges. So I am grateful. But I know that you can't universally pick up any given person with my background, tell them to work hard, and have that be enough.
  - awakeasleep 14y ago
    Thanks for taking the time to spell this out for everyone. You've a real knack for putting things in a simple non-offensive manner. I try to bring up the concept of privilege once in a while, but I find it really hard to get people to think about it. On one hand, it can come off as an attack on your sense of self. And I think it is a blow to certain aspects of your ego. But the intellectual gratification of understanding yourself and how things come to be should make it worth the reconceptualization, even if it didn't tend to make you appreciate your own life as well as the people you spend it with more.
    - alex_c 14y ago
      I hate the word privilege (used in this way), but I'm having trouble articulating why. It's become a loaded term, indirectly associated with sexism, racism, and other isms (just look at a Google search - you'll see "male", "white", "straight", etc. - amusingly enough "American" never seems to make the list), so it can too easily come across as an accusation or attempt to guilt. I'm well aware of my privileges and very grateful for them, but it feels like it's not anyone else's business to point them out to me. Here's a thought experiment - when you try to bring it up, replace the word "privilege" with "blessing" or "luck". Does the concept lose any of its meaning? How do people's reactions change?
      - erikpukinskis 14y ago
        There are two things: having privilege, and wielding it over people. If you are white and male and have a good job, you have privilege and there's nothing wrong with that. No one really has a right to check you for that. If you then go on to tell all kinds of people that you got where you are by working hard and everyone else just has to work hard and they'll get there too, you're minimizing their challenges. They have to work harder to maintain a realistic, positive attitude with respect to the hurdles in front of them, which makes their life harder. Meanwhile, your life is not affected at all by the conversation, you go back to work and are productive. That's wielding your privilege, and that's a dick move, and people have every right to check you for that. As for the difference between privilege and luck or blessings... Privilege is a kind of continuous luck.... one's maleness pays off throughout their entire life. Finding a dollar on the street is only instantaneous luck. And privilege only applies to things that are substantial advantages in the sort of common denominator pursuits of the median individual. Your maleness helps you earn more money which is something pretty much everyone needs to do. If you have small wrists and can easily clean out the inside of glass jars, that's not really privilege. As for why you hate the word, perhaps you hate it because you think being sexist and racist means you're evil, therefore having privilege makes you evil. But everyone is sexist sometimes and everyone is racist sometimes. It's harmful, but it doesn't mean you're evil. It's just the way people work. That said, recognizing your racism and sexism and seeking out ways to be less so is an opportunity to be good. As for people making you feel guilty... No one has a right to make you feel guilty. If they're trying to make you feel bad, they're just being an asshole. That said, they could be simultaneously being an asshole AND checking you on something where you're being an asshole at the same time. If so, I would just forgive them (to yourself) for trying to make you feel bad, and thank them (to their face) for helping you understand better the ways in which you're harming people. Learn something and don't let the petty stuff get in your way.
  - pekk 14y ago
    Not everyone with parents who care ends up with a favorable environment, either.
- DannoHung 14y ago
  You're missing the analogy by a country mile.
- bluekeybox 14y ago
  So the question revolves about whether being born to the right set of parents is a privilege or a result of hard work. One could say that it's almost certainly a privilege -- however what about the parents? What about the work they did to give their kid(s) access to those privileges? Just the mere fact that OP's parents made a decision at some point in their lives to say no to alcohol (or heroin or what have you) is something that should be rewarded, if not in their generation, then in the next.
  - djtriptych 14y ago
    And what about the parents who were systemically denied access to wealth, denied equal access to education, denied the right to vote, and denied equal protection under the law for generations? Isn't freedom from persecution a privilege? Your argument only makes sense in a bubble where institutional sexism, classism, racism, and xenophobia doesn't exist. Hard work alone should be enough - but that is an ideal, not the reality.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

cantastoria 14y ago

I'll put it to you like this: I may have run in the race, and that was all my effort, but someone needed to first put me on plane for me to even compete. Sure, but they worked hard to be able to put on that plane. That you recognized the opportunity and took it is a tribute to you and them. It sounds like you're the product of a lot of hard work (and maybe a little luck). Why minimize that by calling it privilege? It does a disservice to you and those who've helped you.

danilocampos 14y ago
Well, that's the important point about this. It is privilege because not everyone got parents who gave a damn. Not everyone got parents who would bother to teach them things or buy them a computer. Some people just aren't getting those things in their lives. And as long as that's true, these things are privileges. So I am grateful. But I know that you can't universally pick up any given person with my background, tell them to work hard, and have that be enough.
- awakeasleep 14y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to spell this out for everyone. You've a real knack for putting things in a simple non-offensive manner. I try to bring up the concept of privilege once in a while, but I find it really hard to get people to think about it. On one hand, it can come off as an attack on your sense of self. And I think it is a blow to certain aspects of your ego. But the intellectual gratification of understanding yourself and how things come to be should make it worth the reconceptualization, even if it didn't tend to make you appreciate your own life as well as the people you spend it with more.
  - alex_c 14y ago
    I hate the word privilege (used in this way), but I'm having trouble articulating why. It's become a loaded term, indirectly associated with sexism, racism, and other isms (just look at a Google search - you'll see "male", "white", "straight", etc. - amusingly enough "American" never seems to make the list), so it can too easily come across as an accusation or attempt to guilt. I'm well aware of my privileges and very grateful for them, but it feels like it's not anyone else's business to point them out to me. Here's a thought experiment - when you try to bring it up, replace the word "privilege" with "blessing" or "luck". Does the concept lose any of its meaning? How do people's reactions change?
    - erikpukinskis 14y ago
      There are two things: having privilege, and wielding it over people. If you are white and male and have a good job, you have privilege and there's nothing wrong with that. No one really has a right to check you for that. If you then go on to tell all kinds of people that you got where you are by working hard and everyone else just has to work hard and they'll get there too, you're minimizing their challenges. They have to work harder to maintain a realistic, positive attitude with respect to the hurdles in front of them, which makes their life harder. Meanwhile, your life is not affected at all by the conversation, you go back to work and are productive. That's wielding your privilege, and that's a dick move, and people have every right to check you for that. As for the difference between privilege and luck or blessings... Privilege is a kind of continuous luck.... one's maleness pays off throughout their entire life. Finding a dollar on the street is only instantaneous luck. And privilege only applies to things that are substantial advantages in the sort of common denominator pursuits of the median individual. Your maleness helps you earn more money which is something pretty much everyone needs to do. If you have small wrists and can easily clean out the inside of glass jars, that's not really privilege. As for why you hate the word, perhaps you hate it because you think being sexist and racist means you're evil, therefore having privilege makes you evil. But everyone is sexist sometimes and everyone is racist sometimes. It's harmful, but it doesn't mean you're evil. It's just the way people work. That said, recognizing your racism and sexism and seeking out ways to be less so is an opportunity to be good. As for people making you feel guilty... No one has a right to make you feel guilty. If they're trying to make you feel bad, they're just being an asshole. That said, they could be simultaneously being an asshole AND checking you on something where you're being an asshole at the same time. If so, I would just forgive them (to yourself) for trying to make you feel bad, and thank them (to their face) for helping you understand better the ways in which you're harming people. Learn something and don't let the petty stuff get in your way.
- pekk 14y ago
  Not everyone with parents who care ends up with a favorable environment, either.
DannoHung 14y ago
You're missing the analogy by a country mile.
bluekeybox 14y ago
So the question revolves about whether being born to the right set of parents is a privilege or a result of hard work. One could say that it's almost certainly a privilege -- however what about the parents? What about the work they did to give their kid(s) access to those privileges? Just the mere fact that OP's parents made a decision at some point in their lives to say no to alcohol (or heroin or what have you) is something that should be rewarded, if not in their generation, then in the next.
- djtriptych 14y ago
  And what about the parents who were systemically denied access to wealth, denied equal access to education, denied the right to vote, and denied equal protection under the law for generations? Isn't freedom from persecution a privilege? Your argument only makes sense in a bubble where institutional sexism, classism, racism, and xenophobia doesn't exist. Hard work alone should be enough - but that is an ideal, not the reality.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]