4 ms·

I hate when people complain about football injuries. It's the risk and conscious choice that athletes take in order to make an enormous amount of money. If I

by kjackson2012 14y ago

I hate when people complain about football injuries. It's the risk and conscious choice that athletes take in order to make an enormous amount of money. If I were able to make millions of dollars for 8-10 years and risk having concussions and other physical problems later on in life, I would probably take it, especially if I came from an underprivileged background. The real tragedy is that 80% of pro athletes go bankrupt because they don't know how to handle their own money. They made a life-changing amount of money, and they waste it all because they don't have proper guidance in terms of how to retain most of it. THIS is something the NFL needs to concentrate on, that these young kids don't blow all their money away because of immaturity and arrogance.

scott_s 14y ago
The average career for an NFL player is not very long: http://nflcommunications.com/2011/04/18/what-is-average-nfl-player%E2%80%99s-career-length-longer-than-you-might-think-commissioner-goodell-says/ http://nflcommunications.com/2011/04/18/what-is-average-nfl-... Factor into that all of the players who don't make it to the NFL, but played all through high school and college. People start playing football before they understand the accumulated risk. I don't think that the accumulated risk is even well understood by most people at this point. There are studies that show that the incidences of depressions are significantly higher in former NFL athletes, with contributing factors likely being brain trauma and chronic pain. You can find sources here: http://www.google.com/search?q=incidence+of+depression+in+nfl http://www.google.com/search?q=incidence+of+depression+in+nf...
- kjackson2012 14y ago
  I don't dispute any of that. My point is that it's a risk that everyone, to a great extent, knows about and are willing to take. Most of the NFL players don't care about the health effects until it gets extremely drastic, they are willing to risk their health to get the chance to make a life-changing amount of money. Some people, like Peyton Manning who suffered a grave neck injury, already have the money, but want to do it for the sheer competitive thrill. To put it into context, it's similar to a couple of college grads spending all their time trying to make a startup. Their chance of success is extremely small, and yet they are still willing to go for it. And if they work 100 hrs a week, they could suffer health problems too, including physical and mental health issues, like depression. There are several stories of startup founders committing suicide because of their lack of success. How would you feel if a bunch of non-practitioners were sitting around, and added regulations that limited your ability to form a startup because they feared the risks that you were willing to undertake for the chance to "make it rich"?
  - scott_s 14y ago
    My point is that it's a risk that everyone, to a great extent, knows about My point is the opposite. I don't think most people understand the risks, and we already know that 15-year-olds are not equipped to make long-term risk analysis.
    - kjackson2012 14y ago
      I would agree that before, the risks from injuries like concussions were not known. In this era, however, most people playing these contact sports like football and hockey know about them. And if they play at a high-enough level such that they can play in college, then the level of care and attention they get is even higher. If they don't play at a high enough level, their career effectively ends at high school. And it's in the best interest of colleges to pay heed and educate the students on the risks as well. It's not just the NFL that is at risk to litigation, it's also the entire college system. Given the amount of litigation that colleges face, they also probably pay as much attention to things like concussions and career-ending injuries as the NFL does. So I disagree that these days most people don't understand the risks. I believe the risks are well ingrained throughout the entire system. And people are willing to take those risks, which is their right.
  - HarryHirsch 14y ago
    > How would you feel if a bunch of non-practitioners were sitting around, and added regulations that limited your ability to form a startup because they feared the risks that you were willing to undertake for the chance to "make it rich"? It's difficult to protect sole proprietors from their own insanity, but if you are talking regulations against excessive overtime I'm all up for it. Just because everyone else at my employer is young, single and naive does not mean I should be forced to join them in their 80-hour workweeks and risk my marriage.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    > My point is that it's a risk that everyone, to a great extent, knows about Isn't the news here that there's brain damage that we didn't know about before now?
kidgorgeous 14y ago
You are mistaken in the fact that the majority of players have million dollar contracts. The actual truth is that the majority of football players don't make a million dollars gross in their short careers.
- kaliblack 14y ago
  78% of players are bankrupt or financially stressed 2 years after they retire according to Sports Illustrated.
- mattmaroon 14y ago
  League minimum is $390k (which can only be paid to rookies, it then goes up every year) and the average career is about 6 years, so really the vast majority are doing more than a million gross (and net) in their career. Also the average salary is about $2m so you're looking at $12m gross. There's certainly a power law there, but still, an average salary of $12m careerwise is substantial.
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    You should use medians rather than averages for this analysis. The median salary for those who play an entire season before getting cut is around $800,000. The median career length is not reported anywhere I can find. Since all sources besides the NFL claim the average career is 3.5 years, I'll overestimate the median to be 3 years. So, rather than $12M, we should be talking about $2.4M for a median career, and that's just those who play an entire year before getting cut. Since the NFLPA is toothless most NFL "contracts" allow a player to be cut at any time for any reason and then he doesn't get any more money.
    - twoodfin 14y ago
      Since the NFLPA is toothless most NFL "contracts" allow a player to be cut at any time for any reason and then he doesn't get any more money. I don't think this is because the NFLPA is toothless. I think it's because the marginal value of the 53rd man on the roster over the first guy on the practice squad is not high, and it doesn't increase much as you move up. Because the NFL is such a team game, with a few major exceptions players are largely replaceable. That's why you hear so often about guys who were sitting on the couch watching football one Sunday and playing the next. This effectively doesn't happen in, say, baseball, where the supply of guys who can hit major league pitching above the Mendoza line is quite limited. Even with a huge farm system, teams rarely have more than a few major league-caliber players who aren't actually on the roster.
grhino 14y ago
My worry isn't so much for the ones who make it into the NFL and get paid millions with a pension afterward. My worry is for the 8 year old kids playing football and emulating the professional players. My worry is for the ones who almost make it into the NFL, and will suffer physical problems without the NFL benefits.
- ndonnellan 14y ago
  This. How about in college? Or High-school? Or earlier? When the brain is supposed to be developing at it's fastest pace. I presume most kids know that the odds of making money in football are tiny. I would wager none of them knows the trade-off is brain damage. Regardless of whether they make it.
  - grhino 14y ago
    Many kids make the decision to play a sport because they implicitly trust their parents and other elders to keep them safe. I think the article is too optimistic by implying that a change of equipment can shed the problem. I doubt the human head is adapted to handle violence regularly and consistently.
- wallawe 14y ago
  These kids and their parents have a choice, knowing the dangers more than ever in present day. I have suffered 8 concussions, 3 football related, and if I could I would go back and do it all over again. Who are you (i.e. anyone) to decide for these people (the hoards who love to play and the hoards that love to watch) whether or not it is socially acceptable? It is an individual choice. edit: didn't mean to single you out specifically.
  - grhino 14y ago
    Worrying about somebody's safety does not mean I want to take away their freedom. I want people to make an informed choice. I also recognize that we often use information to rationalize decisions we make largely because of our surrounding culture. I have two uncles who played NFL football and their lives have been enriched greatly by their careers. They may have been lucky to not suffer any CTE. One had a 1 season career because of knee injury and the other's 5 year career as DB and special teams doesn't seem to have caused him any chronic health problems.
mattmaroon 14y ago
There's a pretty substantial amount of financial guidance available to pro athletes. I keep seeing this mentioned here but it's just wrong. They aren't broke because there's nobody telling them "hey don't blow all your money." Every team in every sport has an orientation for new players, and nearly every major sport athlete has an agent with an MBA. They're broke because they spend it anyway. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Many of them come from the sorts of backgrounds where you spend the money when you've got it, so that's what they do. But they've all been advised differently.
- scott_s 14y ago
  I don't think it's just their backgrounds. Most people who make a lot of money also spend a lot of money. The difference is that most people who make a lot of money will do so for a lot longer than an average of 6 years. I bet that if you fired someone from the financial industry who made $1 million a year for 6 years after college, and somehow took away all of their prospects for a professional salary, they would also have financial trouble.
sp332 14y ago
> It's the risk and conscious choice On the contrary: players, teams and the whole league have hidden the extent of injuries before. They used to just load the players up with painkillers and send them back out. They had no idea how injured they were. The NFL has been criticized for lack of disclosure regarding brain injuries for a long time. "As of December 2012, thirty-three former National Football League (NFL) players have been diagnosed post-mortem with CTE." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy#American_football https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopat... These players had no idea how injured they were. "In 2012, some four thousand former NFL players have joined civil lawsuits against the League, seeking damages over the League’s failure to protect players from concussions".
drumdance 14y ago
It goes well beyond physical problems. Many former players have committed suicide, attributable to severe depression they often experience because of brain injury.
brdrak 14y ago
Yeah, I agree, one of my interests growing up was martial arts and I went as far as competing as an amateur kickboxer. When I eventually came to the crossroads of either turning pro or focusing on purely intellectual pursuits, I chose the latter for economic reasons -- my idols were decorated world champions who were also broken moneyless men in their 30s, so the decision was a no brainer (though a very difficult one because I loved the sport). If there was a possibility of a comfortable retirement after a 10 year pro career, I would have gone pro for sure.
zem 14y ago
> If I were able to make millions of dollars for 8-10 years and risk having concussions and other physical problems later on in life, I would probably take it, especially if I came from an underprivileged background. throwing money at poor people to injure themselves for the entertainment of others is ethically problematic. writing it off as "conscious choice" ignores the fact that people can be pressured by economic incentives into doing things that are not in their overall best interest, but which they are incapable in their present circumstances of realising are a net loss.

scott_s 14y ago

The average career for an NFL player is not very long: http://nflcommunications.com/2011/04/18/what-is-average-nfl-player%E2%80%99s-career-length-longer-than-you-might-think-commissioner-goodell-says/ http://nflcommunications.com/2011/04/18/what-is-average-nfl-... Factor into that all of the players who don't make it to the NFL, but played all through high school and college. People start playing football before they understand the accumulated risk. I don't think that the accumulated risk is even well understood by most people at this point. There are studies that show that the incidences of depressions are significantly higher in former NFL athletes, with contributing factors likely being brain trauma and chronic pain. You can find sources here: http://www.google.com/search?q=incidence+of+depression+in+nfl http://www.google.com/search?q=incidence+of+depression+in+nf...

kjackson2012 14y ago
I don't dispute any of that. My point is that it's a risk that everyone, to a great extent, knows about and are willing to take. Most of the NFL players don't care about the health effects until it gets extremely drastic, they are willing to risk their health to get the chance to make a life-changing amount of money. Some people, like Peyton Manning who suffered a grave neck injury, already have the money, but want to do it for the sheer competitive thrill. To put it into context, it's similar to a couple of college grads spending all their time trying to make a startup. Their chance of success is extremely small, and yet they are still willing to go for it. And if they work 100 hrs a week, they could suffer health problems too, including physical and mental health issues, like depression. There are several stories of startup founders committing suicide because of their lack of success. How would you feel if a bunch of non-practitioners were sitting around, and added regulations that limited your ability to form a startup because they feared the risks that you were willing to undertake for the chance to "make it rich"?
- scott_s 14y ago
  My point is that it's a risk that everyone, to a great extent, knows about My point is the opposite. I don't think most people understand the risks, and we already know that 15-year-olds are not equipped to make long-term risk analysis.
  - kjackson2012 14y ago
    I would agree that before, the risks from injuries like concussions were not known. In this era, however, most people playing these contact sports like football and hockey know about them. And if they play at a high-enough level such that they can play in college, then the level of care and attention they get is even higher. If they don't play at a high enough level, their career effectively ends at high school. And it's in the best interest of colleges to pay heed and educate the students on the risks as well. It's not just the NFL that is at risk to litigation, it's also the entire college system. Given the amount of litigation that colleges face, they also probably pay as much attention to things like concussions and career-ending injuries as the NFL does. So I disagree that these days most people don't understand the risks. I believe the risks are well ingrained throughout the entire system. And people are willing to take those risks, which is their right.
- HarryHirsch 14y ago
  > How would you feel if a bunch of non-practitioners were sitting around, and added regulations that limited your ability to form a startup because they feared the risks that you were willing to undertake for the chance to "make it rich"? It's difficult to protect sole proprietors from their own insanity, but if you are talking regulations against excessive overtime I'm all up for it. Just because everyone else at my employer is young, single and naive does not mean I should be forced to join them in their 80-hour workweeks and risk my marriage.
- philwelch 14y ago
  > My point is that it's a risk that everyone, to a great extent, knows about Isn't the news here that there's brain damage that we didn't know about before now?

kidgorgeous 14y ago

You are mistaken in the fact that the majority of players have million dollar contracts. The actual truth is that the majority of football players don't make a million dollars gross in their short careers.

kaliblack 14y ago
78% of players are bankrupt or financially stressed 2 years after they retire according to Sports Illustrated.
mattmaroon 14y ago
League minimum is $390k (which can only be paid to rookies, it then goes up every year) and the average career is about 6 years, so really the vast majority are doing more than a million gross (and net) in their career. Also the average salary is about $2m so you're looking at $12m gross. There's certainly a power law there, but still, an average salary of $12m careerwise is substantial.
- jessaustin 14y ago
  You should use medians rather than averages for this analysis. The median salary for those who play an entire season before getting cut is around $800,000. The median career length is not reported anywhere I can find. Since all sources besides the NFL claim the average career is 3.5 years, I'll overestimate the median to be 3 years. So, rather than $12M, we should be talking about $2.4M for a median career, and that's just those who play an entire year before getting cut. Since the NFLPA is toothless most NFL "contracts" allow a player to be cut at any time for any reason and then he doesn't get any more money.
  - twoodfin 14y ago
    Since the NFLPA is toothless most NFL "contracts" allow a player to be cut at any time for any reason and then he doesn't get any more money. I don't think this is because the NFLPA is toothless. I think it's because the marginal value of the 53rd man on the roster over the first guy on the practice squad is not high, and it doesn't increase much as you move up. Because the NFL is such a team game, with a few major exceptions players are largely replaceable. That's why you hear so often about guys who were sitting on the couch watching football one Sunday and playing the next. This effectively doesn't happen in, say, baseball, where the supply of guys who can hit major league pitching above the Mendoza line is quite limited. Even with a huge farm system, teams rarely have more than a few major league-caliber players who aren't actually on the roster.

grhino 14y ago

My worry isn't so much for the ones who make it into the NFL and get paid millions with a pension afterward. My worry is for the 8 year old kids playing football and emulating the professional players. My worry is for the ones who almost make it into the NFL, and will suffer physical problems without the NFL benefits.

ndonnellan 14y ago
This. How about in college? Or High-school? Or earlier? When the brain is supposed to be developing at it's fastest pace. I presume most kids know that the odds of making money in football are tiny. I would wager none of them knows the trade-off is brain damage. Regardless of whether they make it.
- grhino 14y ago
  Many kids make the decision to play a sport because they implicitly trust their parents and other elders to keep them safe. I think the article is too optimistic by implying that a change of equipment can shed the problem. I doubt the human head is adapted to handle violence regularly and consistently.
wallawe 14y ago
These kids and their parents have a choice, knowing the dangers more than ever in present day. I have suffered 8 concussions, 3 football related, and if I could I would go back and do it all over again. Who are you (i.e. anyone) to decide for these people (the hoards who love to play and the hoards that love to watch) whether or not it is socially acceptable? It is an individual choice. edit: didn't mean to single you out specifically.
- grhino 14y ago
  Worrying about somebody's safety does not mean I want to take away their freedom. I want people to make an informed choice. I also recognize that we often use information to rationalize decisions we make largely because of our surrounding culture. I have two uncles who played NFL football and their lives have been enriched greatly by their careers. They may have been lucky to not suffer any CTE. One had a 1 season career because of knee injury and the other's 5 year career as DB and special teams doesn't seem to have caused him any chronic health problems.

mattmaroon 14y ago

There's a pretty substantial amount of financial guidance available to pro athletes. I keep seeing this mentioned here but it's just wrong. They aren't broke because there's nobody telling them "hey don't blow all your money." Every team in every sport has an orientation for new players, and nearly every major sport athlete has an agent with an MBA. They're broke because they spend it anyway. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Many of them come from the sorts of backgrounds where you spend the money when you've got it, so that's what they do. But they've all been advised differently.

scott_s 14y ago
I don't think it's just their backgrounds. Most people who make a lot of money also spend a lot of money. The difference is that most people who make a lot of money will do so for a lot longer than an average of 6 years. I bet that if you fired someone from the financial industry who made $1 million a year for 6 years after college, and somehow took away all of their prospects for a professional salary, they would also have financial trouble.

sp332 14y ago

> It's the risk and conscious choice On the contrary: players, teams and the whole league have hidden the extent of injuries before. They used to just load the players up with painkillers and send them back out. They had no idea how injured they were. The NFL has been criticized for lack of disclosure regarding brain injuries for a long time. "As of December 2012, thirty-three former National Football League (NFL) players have been diagnosed post-mortem with CTE." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy#American_football https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopat... These players had no idea how injured they were. "In 2012, some four thousand former NFL players have joined civil lawsuits against the League, seeking damages over the League’s failure to protect players from concussions".

drumdance 14y ago

It goes well beyond physical problems. Many former players have committed suicide, attributable to severe depression they often experience because of brain injury.

brdrak 14y ago

Yeah, I agree, one of my interests growing up was martial arts and I went as far as competing as an amateur kickboxer. When I eventually came to the crossroads of either turning pro or focusing on purely intellectual pursuits, I chose the latter for economic reasons -- my idols were decorated world champions who were also broken moneyless men in their 30s, so the decision was a no brainer (though a very difficult one because I loved the sport). If there was a possibility of a comfortable retirement after a 10 year pro career, I would have gone pro for sure.

zem 14y ago

> If I were able to make millions of dollars for 8-10 years and risk having concussions and other physical problems later on in life, I would probably take it, especially if I came from an underprivileged background. throwing money at poor people to injure themselves for the entertainment of others is ethically problematic. writing it off as "conscious choice" ignores the fact that people can be pressured by economic incentives into doing things that are not in their overall best interest, but which they are incapable in their present circumstances of realising are a net loss.