5 ms·

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking

by sc0rb 14y ago

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

VexXtreme 14y ago
I work with Java every day. Java and Spring pay my bills at the moment but that doesn't lessen my contempt for the platform. Overly amateurish nature of the community/ecosystem is a huge issue when you are building enterprise level applications (but have no choice really, because it is your company's technology of choice - usually because they are too cheap to pay for decent dev tools). The whole community is full of de facto "standards" and half baked libraries which are usually results of someone's summer project. The language in and of itself is alright (although massively outdated compared to more modern alternatives like C#), but the virtual machine and the nature of the ecosystem make me want to blow my brains out on daily basis. Don't even get me started on the recent security debacle. I don't know a lot about these new *.js technologies but if they are right tools for the job, then yes, I wouldn't have anything against using them where appropriate.
- unoti 14y ago
  You said some insightful and interesting things there, but two things in particular are most striking: 1) You have no choice. 2) You don't know about new technologies. I sense a potential roadmap for you here! Start learning, build something to show people you've learned, and start looking. Whenever you feel trapped, you're becoming obsolete. Don't be a victim, be a conqueror.
- pron 14y ago
  So, do you mean Java or the JVM? Because here we're talking about the JVM; that means Java, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala etc. Sometimes the JVM isn't the right tool; Java the language is often the wrong tool. But when you need to write large, high-performance, backend software, the JVM is pretty much the only rational choice. C/C++ is too expensive effort-wise, in development, in maintenance and in monitoring. Erlang is awesome, but it's too slow for some things. .Net is not robust on non-windows platforms (I'm not sure about this, but this is the common perception). Go is slower than Java, lacks the huge ecosystem, and also doesn't provide all the JVM goodies like runtime instrumentation and profiling, hot code swapping, good monitoring etc. Rust is too immature (and won't give you those benefits either). So, pretty often, the JVM is the only choice and you think it's time to kill it?
- sc0rb 14y ago
  Maybe you need a better job at a better company that hires better technical talent so you're not forever stuck on your legacy, xml configured Spring stack?
- tensor 14y ago
  I also work the the JVM (but not Java) everyday. The JVM and it's libraries are arguably the strongest part of the Java ecosystem. You really need to experience other languages and their library ecosystems before you make grandiose comments like these.
- jtheory 14y ago
  > Don't even get me started on the recent security debacle. I'm kinda curious to get you started on the security debacle, actually. Do you ship Java software that runs client-side? Spring is usually for server-side; if you're just on the server side, though, how has the security debacle affected you? I generally agree about the ecosystem (yup, just gotta avoid most of it) and the core language (though the clunkyness is somewhat mitigated by IDE facilities for auto-generating code). But I mostly spend my time on either client-side JavaScript or server-side Java, and it's the JavaScript side that drives me crazy -- in the JVM, things just work. I've hit runtime bugs maybe twice in 14 years working with Java on the server side, and one of those was on the AS/400 (!), and unless I'm doing something stupid, it's fast.
- brazzy 14y ago
  If you think the Java community and ecosystem are amateurish, better not take a closer look at any of the others...
Karunamon 14y ago
No reason? I'd say their ham-handed approach to security and their contentment to sit with their thumbs up their arses, while vulnerabilities whose magnitude compare favorably with the US national debt are being exploited widely is more than enough reason to hate Java. At least Microsoft has the good sense to issue OOB patches when something serious enough comes up! The current state of Java means that running the browser plugin paints a huge bullseye on your back. It got bad enough that the freaking department of homeland security recently issued a warning to disable the plugin for your own good.
- sc0rb 14y ago
  Then stop running it in the browser. Do you have any idea how ubiquitous java is in the enterprise? Everywhere uses java. Have you ever worked on anything that needs to be scalable, extensible and maintainable?
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    Everywhere used Flash, and look at where that's going. Ubiquity is not a valid response to "this sucks, we should start thinking of better ideas". Scalability, maintainability, and extensibility are not unique to Java.
- chc 14y ago
  Nobody's talking about the browser plugin. That just adds noise to the conversation.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    > Nobody's talking about the browser plugin. If you're talking about Java, you're talking about the browser plugin. It all executes on the same VM. You can't simply declare it off limits given the massive and repeated security issues surrounding it, combined with its ubiquity (especially for countries not ending in "America" - Clientside java is very popular in European banks.)
    - 14y ago
stevvooe 14y ago
Please: it's some_other_crap.py.
bunderbunder 14y ago
I'd vote for replacing it with Mono. Modern VM design, vastly superior flagship language, pretty solid on the side languages* too, better platform support (Thanks Xamarin!), and best yet it's Free. Like really Free, not Oracle-style "Here's the source code so you can maybe hack on our implementation a bit but if you try doing anything we don't like we'll sue your ass" 'free'. * Not really a great Lisp for the platform yet, but I prefer F# to Scala. Much cleaner syntax, 'feels' more functional.
- sc0rb 14y ago
  Mono isn't proven anywhere near as much as the JVM. I don't know why this is being downvoted. It's true that the JVM is one of the things in the Java ecosystem that is looked upon as a massive success.
  - dasil003 14y ago
    Probably because you decry someone for living in a bubble but then proceed to inflate your own. Yeah, the JVM is great, but not everything that fails to live up to its incredible success is "unproven".
    - sc0rb 14y ago
      That may be the case but Mono still isn't proven as much as the JVM is.
      - bunderbunder 14y ago
        Absolutely true that the JVM gets more use. But it's also true that the present situation is never set in stone. Remember how popular it was to malign Java back in the late 90s? And it's also true that the CLR really is technically superior to the JVM on a whole slew of points. It has runtime-level support for generics (meaning C# lets you do all sorts of nice things with them that Java doesn't support). It has user-defined value types. It supports coroutines (i.e., 'yield'). It supports anonymous functions and closures. For those who just can't leave pointers alone, it even has unsafe blocks. And so on. So while it's definitely not "proven" in a sense that will impress your average PHB, in terms of technical merit I don't think there's really any comparison. Mono wins hands-down.

by sc0rb 14y ago

VexXtreme 14y ago

I work with Java every day. Java and Spring pay my bills at the moment but that doesn't lessen my contempt for the platform. Overly amateurish nature of the community/ecosystem is a huge issue when you are building enterprise level applications (but have no choice really, because it is your company's technology of choice - usually because they are too cheap to pay for decent dev tools). The whole community is full of de facto "standards" and half baked libraries which are usually results of someone's summer project. The language in and of itself is alright (although massively outdated compared to more modern alternatives like C#), but the virtual machine and the nature of the ecosystem make me want to blow my brains out on daily basis. Don't even get me started on the recent security debacle. I don't know a lot about these new *.js technologies but if they are right tools for the job, then yes, I wouldn't have anything against using them where appropriate.

unoti 14y ago
You said some insightful and interesting things there, but two things in particular are most striking: 1) You have no choice. 2) You don't know about new technologies. I sense a potential roadmap for you here! Start learning, build something to show people you've learned, and start looking. Whenever you feel trapped, you're becoming obsolete. Don't be a victim, be a conqueror.
pron 14y ago
So, do you mean Java or the JVM? Because here we're talking about the JVM; that means Java, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala etc. Sometimes the JVM isn't the right tool; Java the language is often the wrong tool. But when you need to write large, high-performance, backend software, the JVM is pretty much the only rational choice. C/C++ is too expensive effort-wise, in development, in maintenance and in monitoring. Erlang is awesome, but it's too slow for some things. .Net is not robust on non-windows platforms (I'm not sure about this, but this is the common perception). Go is slower than Java, lacks the huge ecosystem, and also doesn't provide all the JVM goodies like runtime instrumentation and profiling, hot code swapping, good monitoring etc. Rust is too immature (and won't give you those benefits either). So, pretty often, the JVM is the only choice and you think it's time to kill it?
sc0rb 14y ago
Maybe you need a better job at a better company that hires better technical talent so you're not forever stuck on your legacy, xml configured Spring stack?
tensor 14y ago
I also work the the JVM (but not Java) everyday. The JVM and it's libraries are arguably the strongest part of the Java ecosystem. You really need to experience other languages and their library ecosystems before you make grandiose comments like these.
jtheory 14y ago
> Don't even get me started on the recent security debacle. I'm kinda curious to get you started on the security debacle, actually. Do you ship Java software that runs client-side? Spring is usually for server-side; if you're just on the server side, though, how has the security debacle affected you? I generally agree about the ecosystem (yup, just gotta avoid most of it) and the core language (though the clunkyness is somewhat mitigated by IDE facilities for auto-generating code). But I mostly spend my time on either client-side JavaScript or server-side Java, and it's the JavaScript side that drives me crazy -- in the JVM, things just work. I've hit runtime bugs maybe twice in 14 years working with Java on the server side, and one of those was on the AS/400 (!), and unless I'm doing something stupid, it's fast.
brazzy 14y ago
If you think the Java community and ecosystem are amateurish, better not take a closer look at any of the others...

Karunamon 14y ago

No reason? I'd say their ham-handed approach to security and their contentment to sit with their thumbs up their arses, while vulnerabilities whose magnitude compare favorably with the US national debt are being exploited widely is more than enough reason to hate Java. At least Microsoft has the good sense to issue OOB patches when something serious enough comes up! The current state of Java means that running the browser plugin paints a huge bullseye on your back. It got bad enough that the freaking department of homeland security recently issued a warning to disable the plugin for your own good.

sc0rb 14y ago
Then stop running it in the browser. Do you have any idea how ubiquitous java is in the enterprise? Everywhere uses java. Have you ever worked on anything that needs to be scalable, extensible and maintainable?
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Everywhere used Flash, and look at where that's going. Ubiquity is not a valid response to "this sucks, we should start thinking of better ideas". Scalability, maintainability, and extensibility are not unique to Java.
chc 14y ago
Nobody's talking about the browser plugin. That just adds noise to the conversation.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  > Nobody's talking about the browser plugin. If you're talking about Java, you're talking about the browser plugin. It all executes on the same VM. You can't simply declare it off limits given the massive and repeated security issues surrounding it, combined with its ubiquity (especially for countries not ending in "America" - Clientside java is very popular in European banks.)
  - 14y ago

stevvooe 14y ago

Please: it's some_other_crap.py.

bunderbunder 14y ago

I'd vote for replacing it with Mono. Modern VM design, vastly superior flagship language, pretty solid on the side languages* too, better platform support (Thanks Xamarin!), and best yet it's Free. Like really Free, not Oracle-style "Here's the source code so you can maybe hack on our implementation a bit but if you try doing anything we don't like we'll sue your ass" 'free'. * Not really a great Lisp for the platform yet, but I prefer F# to Scala. Much cleaner syntax, 'feels' more functional.

sc0rb 14y ago
Mono isn't proven anywhere near as much as the JVM. I don't know why this is being downvoted. It's true that the JVM is one of the things in the Java ecosystem that is looked upon as a massive success.
- dasil003 14y ago
  Probably because you decry someone for living in a bubble but then proceed to inflate your own. Yeah, the JVM is great, but not everything that fails to live up to its incredible success is "unproven".
  - sc0rb 14y ago
    That may be the case but Mono still isn't proven as much as the JVM is.
    - bunderbunder 14y ago
      Absolutely true that the JVM gets more use. But it's also true that the present situation is never set in stone. Remember how popular it was to malign Java back in the late 90s? And it's also true that the CLR really is technically superior to the JVM on a whole slew of points. It has runtime-level support for generics (meaning C# lets you do all sorts of nice things with them that Java doesn't support). It has user-defined value types. It supports coroutines (i.e., 'yield'). It supports anonymous functions and closures. For those who just can't leave pointers alone, it even has unsafe blocks. And so on. So while it's definitely not "proven" in a sense that will impress your average PHB, in terms of technical merit I don't think there's really any comparison. Mono wins hands-down.