7 ms·

I think they (GNOME) would like to 'lure' more web-centered developers to their platform so that's why they chose JS. But there's a fault in their thinking IMH

I think they (GNOME) would like to 'lure' more web-centered developers to their platform so that's why they chose JS. But there's a fault in their thinking IMHO. Web guys are web guys for one reason: They sincerely believe web is the future and better than native desktop software. (For some values of better.) And then there's the other big group: The native desktop devs who don't think JavaScript is a good choice for a native platform as there's already a big eco system of C/C++ code supporting this platform and why make the extra work of creating JS bindings? (I'm one of these guys - though I don't develop for GNOME.) So all the GNOME guys do with this decision is to alienate their existing developer base while not really attracting any new devs to their platform. Personally I think Vala was/is a perfect language for their platform. It's sad they they gave up on that.

icebraining 14y ago
Web guys are web guys for one reason: They sincerely believe web is the future and better than native desktop software. Maybe; how does that fit in with PhoneGap?
- psionski 14y ago
  PhoneGap is about marketing, not about software. For customers it's difficult to find a specific website, but it's easier to find an app in the app store. The devs are still web guys, but thought they will sell more if it looks like a "real app".
  - zapdrive 14y ago
    I disagree. I used PhoneGap to develop my cloud-storage app so that I don't have to develop the App for 4 different platforms (iOS, Android, Windows, BlackBerry). I believe most devs use PhoneGap to develop real apps, not just to pack their existing websites into native apps.
    - psionski 14y ago
      This makes sense, thank you for the insight :) Wouldn't it have worked as a normal website? Does PhoneGap offer access to native APIs that are not available from web?
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - zapdrive 14y ago
        It sure does. You can access local storage, camera, GPS, accelerometers... just name it.
- aeosynth 14y ago
  To quote the phonegap devs: http://phonegap.com/2012/05/09/phonegap-beliefs-goals-and-philosophy/ http://phonegap.com/2012/05/09/phonegap-beliefs-goals-and-ph... > The ultimate purpose of PhoneGap is to cease to exist.
  - zapdrive 14y ago
    You took it out of context totally. Here is the explanation they give: "Our second goal is not nihilistic but is rather a commitment to standardization of the web as a platform. We believe in a web open to everyone to participate however they will. No locked doors. No walls. The things we do with PhoneGap are directly influenced by the work we see at the W3C, WHATWG, and other research such as Mozilla's WebAPI, BONDI, WAC, Webinos, webOS, Tizen and the like."
buster 14y ago
Agreed with that, although i tried getting into fixing a bug in Geary (a Vala written mail client) and documentation was so scarce, i gave up on it early on, before wasting hours of trying to figure out Vala. It seems to have gotten better, and they added lots of stuff on https://live.gnome.org/Vala/Documentation https://live.gnome.org/Vala/Documentation BUT for example, i'd like to open and write a sqlite database. There even is a vala binding: http://valadoc.org/#!api=sqlite3/Sqlite http://valadoc.org/#!api=sqlite3/Sqlite It's much harder to figure those out than the usual bindings let's say http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html . There is some Database class. But apart from function names no documentation is given at all. With the python version (and most likely ruby, perl, C, etc.) i can start immediatly, there are examples and everything. No, why should this be different with the gnome javascript bindings? What happens if there is no binding? You can find lots and lots of bindings for the major script languages and it is easy enough to create one yourself thanks to boost and SWIG and ctypes in python.
kayoone 14y ago
But then theres PhoneGap and there was WebOS from HP which both are/were pretty popular with developers
- cduser 14y ago
  Mobile apps are on the rise. Native apps are not.
_pmf_ 14y ago
> Web guys are web guys for one reason: They sincerely believe web is the future and better than native desktop software. That's probably only a very small, but very vocal group of developers; those that seem to spend more of their time on writing about their work and their unique insights into how software development should be done (all inferred from their petty front-end dabbling) than actually doing something productive. The vast majority of web developers is developing for the web out of necessity, not because of some grandiose spiritual self-delusion. I do of course agree with your view that this move will neither attract new developers nor keep existing developers happy.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  > The vast majority of web developers is developing for the web out of necessity. I wouldn't call it necessity. I, for one, like the openness of the web, how it allows me to deploy software to all my users at the same time, the customization, etc. I don't believe it's the holy grail, but it's hardly out of necessity that I develop for it.
- earnubs 14y ago
  "all inferred from their petty front-end dabbling" Oh my, your horse, it is so high!
- pfraze 14y ago
  I can't speak for everyone else, but as somebody who writes a lot of Web software and very little blogs, I can say that I have plenty of grandiose spiritual self-delusion. I may not be close to the metal, but I write good software.
- tracker1 14y ago
  I spend far more time writing back-end code (automation, data handling, and services) more than I do front-end code. Most of that code is so that the front end can be nicer. Just because the UI I develop is web-based, doesn't mean I don't know how to write effective code. I do think that JS is an acceptable language for UI development. It is hands down the most widely used language on the planet. Gnome isn't deprecating the other interfaces, it's just that they are steering new developers to the JS interfaces. I do think that the Python guys are having a pretty bad attitude about it though. They had to pick A language as their base for documentation purposes, and I think JS is probably the most pragmatic choice here. I have to admit that I'm a bit of a JS fan (warts and all), and with NodeJS and MongoDB it's been a far more fluid development experience than other groups of technologies I've had to work with over the past 17 years in software development. It's a pretty decent language to work with.
jasonlotito 14y ago
You can still use C/C++. The headline and article are misleading. You can also use the other bindings available. However, they can't support everything under the sun.
stuaxo 14y ago
Vala does look good. When it comes to language bindings GObject creates bindings for multiple languages. I know I'm only ever going to use Gtk via python personally.
jiggy2011 14y ago
The web is great and all but there are times when I want something with better desktop workflow integration. Being able to reuse a chunk of code written for the web and integrate it into gnome could allow for rapid development of lightweight applications for the desktop. Since the Linux desktop is still a minority platform, anything that makes it easier to port apps there without digging into python/mono/C++ is a win. In fact with MS adding first class JS support for metro apps there might be an opening for a cross platform library that pops out Metro and Gnome apps.
- correnos 14y ago
  The whole point of simplified languages like Python is that it isn't digging -- the basics of the language are super-easy to learn, and GNOME's bindigs make it easy to hammer out simple apps in it without fuss. If this move was purely choosing a "lightweight" language, Javascript would have scarcely been considered purely by virtue of its boatload of gotchas. As for code-reuse, most any web library you could care for has probably been done, better, locally. The only allure of Javascript libraries are that they can be utilized in the browser, and since GNOME JS code relies on GNOME-specific APIs you don't even get that benefit. GTK already allows you to write cross-platform apps. Javascript isn't going to improve matters there.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    You might underestimate the time required to really understand a new language and be as productive in it as you would with something you have used routinely for years. Bare in mind it is not just the language but the whole ecosystem and also that some programmers can adapt to new languages better than others. From a business point of view you are likely looking at a considerable time sink on an existing developer, or possibly hiring an extra one. This to develop for a platform with ~1% market share does not necessarily look like a great investment. Javascript on the desktop allows you to take a bunch of the code that you may have already written for the web or for Metro or for phonegap , add GTK stuff for desktop integration and call it good.
    - 14y ago
muyuu 14y ago
Gnome want their own wallet garden. Charging for software is somehow evil, but wallet gardens with "road tax" are somehow acceptable and people are getting used to them. Makes sense for them I guess, but I'm going to continue ignoring Gnome as I've been doing since Gnome 3, as they have made very clear I'm "outside of their target demographic".
- mertd 14y ago
  Where is the wall? It is an open source project.
  - muyuu 14y ago
    So is Android. They are taking steps in that direction.
    - mertd 14y ago
      And you can load any .apk you want on non-crippled versions. So where is the wall?
      - muyuu 14y ago
        The wall is the "standard" store. Pretty much like Apple does, because you can also jailbreak an Apple and this doesn't make their ecosystem any less of a walled garden. They are trying to become a channel just like Ubuntu and like every man and his dog seems to be doing lately. At this point their interests and those of the users don't necessarily align 100% of the time. The same applies to Google, Apple, Ubuntu, and a bunch of others really. If you just want the best possible desktop environment and nothing more, I'm sorry but that's not their priority now and compromises will continue to happen in that regard.
        mertd 14y ago
        You don't need to "hack" Android to install any app from any source you want. Same goes for Linux distros including Ubuntu. Package managers are not App-store type walled gardens.
rdtsc 14y ago
> The native desktop devs who don't think JavaScript is a good choice for a native platform as there's already a big eco system of C/C++ code supporting Not only that there is a sane language like Python, there is Vala as well. There are already are good binding for both. GNOME should have marketed the hell of out of Vala, I think. I think GNOME should have played ball better with Ubuntu. Now they sort of got pushed to the back a bit and they are trying to be "cool" again. But as you said, there is only one latest cool platform and that's the browser. If I want to write a "app" for GNOME I would write it for Ubuntu's Software Store, I wouldn't write it for GNOME desktop.

icebraining 14y ago

Web guys are web guys for one reason: They sincerely believe web is the future and better than native desktop software. Maybe; how does that fit in with PhoneGap?

psionski 14y ago
PhoneGap is about marketing, not about software. For customers it's difficult to find a specific website, but it's easier to find an app in the app store. The devs are still web guys, but thought they will sell more if it looks like a "real app".
- zapdrive 14y ago
  I disagree. I used PhoneGap to develop my cloud-storage app so that I don't have to develop the App for 4 different platforms (iOS, Android, Windows, BlackBerry). I believe most devs use PhoneGap to develop real apps, not just to pack their existing websites into native apps.
  - psionski 14y ago
    This makes sense, thank you for the insight :) Wouldn't it have worked as a normal website? Does PhoneGap offer access to native APIs that are not available from web?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - zapdrive 14y ago
      It sure does. You can access local storage, camera, GPS, accelerometers... just name it.
aeosynth 14y ago
To quote the phonegap devs: http://phonegap.com/2012/05/09/phonegap-beliefs-goals-and-philosophy/ http://phonegap.com/2012/05/09/phonegap-beliefs-goals-and-ph... > The ultimate purpose of PhoneGap is to cease to exist.
- zapdrive 14y ago
  You took it out of context totally. Here is the explanation they give: "Our second goal is not nihilistic but is rather a commitment to standardization of the web as a platform. We believe in a web open to everyone to participate however they will. No locked doors. No walls. The things we do with PhoneGap are directly influenced by the work we see at the W3C, WHATWG, and other research such as Mozilla's WebAPI, BONDI, WAC, Webinos, webOS, Tizen and the like."

buster 14y ago

Agreed with that, although i tried getting into fixing a bug in Geary (a Vala written mail client) and documentation was so scarce, i gave up on it early on, before wasting hours of trying to figure out Vala. It seems to have gotten better, and they added lots of stuff on https://live.gnome.org/Vala/Documentation https://live.gnome.org/Vala/Documentation BUT for example, i'd like to open and write a sqlite database. There even is a vala binding: http://valadoc.org/#!api=sqlite3/Sqlite http://valadoc.org/#!api=sqlite3/Sqlite It's much harder to figure those out than the usual bindings let's say http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html . There is some Database class. But apart from function names no documentation is given at all. With the python version (and most likely ruby, perl, C, etc.) i can start immediatly, there are examples and everything. No, why should this be different with the gnome javascript bindings? What happens if there is no binding? You can find lots and lots of bindings for the major script languages and it is easy enough to create one yourself thanks to boost and SWIG and ctypes in python.

kayoone 14y ago

But then theres PhoneGap and there was WebOS from HP which both are/were pretty popular with developers

cduser 14y ago
Mobile apps are on the rise. Native apps are not.

_pmf_ 14y ago

> Web guys are web guys for one reason: They sincerely believe web is the future and better than native desktop software. That's probably only a very small, but very vocal group of developers; those that seem to spend more of their time on writing about their work and their unique insights into how software development should be done (all inferred from their petty front-end dabbling) than actually doing something productive. The vast majority of web developers is developing for the web out of necessity, not because of some grandiose spiritual self-delusion. I do of course agree with your view that this move will neither attract new developers nor keep existing developers happy.

StavrosK 14y ago
> The vast majority of web developers is developing for the web out of necessity. I wouldn't call it necessity. I, for one, like the openness of the web, how it allows me to deploy software to all my users at the same time, the customization, etc. I don't believe it's the holy grail, but it's hardly out of necessity that I develop for it.
earnubs 14y ago
"all inferred from their petty front-end dabbling" Oh my, your horse, it is so high!
pfraze 14y ago
I can't speak for everyone else, but as somebody who writes a lot of Web software and very little blogs, I can say that I have plenty of grandiose spiritual self-delusion. I may not be close to the metal, but I write good software.
tracker1 14y ago
I spend far more time writing back-end code (automation, data handling, and services) more than I do front-end code. Most of that code is so that the front end can be nicer. Just because the UI I develop is web-based, doesn't mean I don't know how to write effective code. I do think that JS is an acceptable language for UI development. It is hands down the most widely used language on the planet. Gnome isn't deprecating the other interfaces, it's just that they are steering new developers to the JS interfaces. I do think that the Python guys are having a pretty bad attitude about it though. They had to pick A language as their base for documentation purposes, and I think JS is probably the most pragmatic choice here. I have to admit that I'm a bit of a JS fan (warts and all), and with NodeJS and MongoDB it's been a far more fluid development experience than other groups of technologies I've had to work with over the past 17 years in software development. It's a pretty decent language to work with.

jasonlotito 14y ago

You can still use C/C++. The headline and article are misleading. You can also use the other bindings available. However, they can't support everything under the sun.

stuaxo 14y ago

Vala does look good. When it comes to language bindings GObject creates bindings for multiple languages. I know I'm only ever going to use Gtk via python personally.

jiggy2011 14y ago

The web is great and all but there are times when I want something with better desktop workflow integration. Being able to reuse a chunk of code written for the web and integrate it into gnome could allow for rapid development of lightweight applications for the desktop. Since the Linux desktop is still a minority platform, anything that makes it easier to port apps there without digging into python/mono/C++ is a win. In fact with MS adding first class JS support for metro apps there might be an opening for a cross platform library that pops out Metro and Gnome apps.

correnos 14y ago
The whole point of simplified languages like Python is that it isn't digging -- the basics of the language are super-easy to learn, and GNOME's bindigs make it easy to hammer out simple apps in it without fuss. If this move was purely choosing a "lightweight" language, Javascript would have scarcely been considered purely by virtue of its boatload of gotchas. As for code-reuse, most any web library you could care for has probably been done, better, locally. The only allure of Javascript libraries are that they can be utilized in the browser, and since GNOME JS code relies on GNOME-specific APIs you don't even get that benefit. GTK already allows you to write cross-platform apps. Javascript isn't going to improve matters there.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  You might underestimate the time required to really understand a new language and be as productive in it as you would with something you have used routinely for years. Bare in mind it is not just the language but the whole ecosystem and also that some programmers can adapt to new languages better than others. From a business point of view you are likely looking at a considerable time sink on an existing developer, or possibly hiring an extra one. This to develop for a platform with ~1% market share does not necessarily look like a great investment. Javascript on the desktop allows you to take a bunch of the code that you may have already written for the web or for Metro or for phonegap , add GTK stuff for desktop integration and call it good.
  - 14y ago

muyuu 14y ago

Gnome want their own wallet garden. Charging for software is somehow evil, but wallet gardens with "road tax" are somehow acceptable and people are getting used to them. Makes sense for them I guess, but I'm going to continue ignoring Gnome as I've been doing since Gnome 3, as they have made very clear I'm "outside of their target demographic".

mertd 14y ago
Where is the wall? It is an open source project.
- muyuu 14y ago
  So is Android. They are taking steps in that direction.
  - mertd 14y ago
    And you can load any .apk you want on non-crippled versions. So where is the wall?
    - muyuu 14y ago
      The wall is the "standard" store. Pretty much like Apple does, because you can also jailbreak an Apple and this doesn't make their ecosystem any less of a walled garden. They are trying to become a channel just like Ubuntu and like every man and his dog seems to be doing lately. At this point their interests and those of the users don't necessarily align 100% of the time. The same applies to Google, Apple, Ubuntu, and a bunch of others really. If you just want the best possible desktop environment and nothing more, I'm sorry but that's not their priority now and compromises will continue to happen in that regard.
      - mertd 14y ago
        You don't need to "hack" Android to install any app from any source you want. Same goes for Linux distros including Ubuntu. Package managers are not App-store type walled gardens.

rdtsc 14y ago

> The native desktop devs who don't think JavaScript is a good choice for a native platform as there's already a big eco system of C/C++ code supporting Not only that there is a sane language like Python, there is Vala as well. There are already are good binding for both. GNOME should have marketed the hell of out of Vala, I think. I think GNOME should have played ball better with Ubuntu. Now they sort of got pushed to the back a bit and they are trying to be "cool" again. But as you said, there is only one latest cool platform and that's the browser. If I want to write a "app" for GNOME I would write it for Ubuntu's Software Store, I wouldn't write it for GNOME desktop.