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Yes. But. (and this post doesn't intend to argue Aaron was depressed, just thinks about the premise that he might have been) As someone who suffers a lot with

by ErrantX 14y ago

Yes. But. (and this post doesn't intend to argue Aaron was depressed, just thinks about the premise that he might have been) As someone who suffers a lot with depression, it is quite possible to be depressed and for no one close to you to notice. We can be damn good at hiding it, especially with practice, especially with people we know well. Some time ago I was living with my partner and she had no clue I had been depressed for months. Then we went out with a couple we hadn't seen for a little while, and afterwards the girl took my partner aside and asked if I was OK. Taren obviously knows him best, and I agree that if she says Aaron wouldn't have committed suicide if it weren't for the case then clearly that is true. However, I think she is dismissing the impact of depression, or at least dismissing the possibility, to readily. You could turn around and suggest that if he hadn't been in depression (if indeed he was) then the case may have not driven him to suicide. Depression is a horrible, and terrible thing. Those close to depressed individuals certainly have a lot of insight, but it is still nearly impossible to communicate what it is like even to them. EDIT: I'm cautious to add this, because it is "one guy on the internet", but reading Taren's post again some of the things she describes strike me as telltale signs of secreted depression. Disappearing on a whim for a hike, for example, is a favourite of mine. EDIT2: It is also worth noting she describes one common set of symptoms of depression (low activity, disinterest, etc.). However, I for one don't often get them (for example) but I do become deeply involved in subjects for periods of time before moving on. Similar to how she describes. This is a very very common symptom of depression and if you see a friend become obsessed with a string of new things take a second to think about how they might be.

thaumaturgy 14y ago
I would have loved to have seen this comment of yours at the top of the thread instead; I agree with everything in it. Further, I'll also step forward as someone who also deals regularly with crippling depression; being more open about it is what I've resolved to do after Aaron's suicide, and the suicide in November of one of my clients. (I've written only a very little about it before, http://www.robsheldon.com/blog/depression-programming/ http://www.robsheldon.com/blog/depression-programming/) You're absolutely right that we can be sneaky. A huge part of that is the stigma associated with depression. I'm certain that if all of my clients knew about it, I'd lose some of them for the simple fact that they'd consider me unreliable in the long term. So, when Taren mentioned that she'd been "reading up" on depression, and concluded that that wasn't what Aaron was suffering from, I did cringe a little. I came to the comments here expecting to find some discussion of depression; what I didn't expect was the top comment completely dismissing Aaron's suicide as being only about depression. Depression is probably different for different people, like most things. Mine simply makes me more susceptible to struggling when life gets hard. I'm rarely depressed when the sun is shining and there's money in the bank account and my car is working and my business is good and my friends and family are happy. When too many of those things are off, I feel it intensely and my default biochemical response is to crawl into a hole and want to disappear. I have to fight my way back out of that, every time. So I find Aaron's case very easy to empathize with. If I were in his situation -- inasmuch as I understand his situation at this point -- I'm honestly not sure what I would do. I can tell you that I'd feel overpowered, hopeless, and defeated. I can also tell you that I would want to punch anyone in the face who said that if I chose to commit suicide as a result of the situation, it would be primarily because of my depression.
xijuan 14y ago
Do you know how psychiatrists or clinical psychologists diagnose depression? Have you read the DSM? Do you know how they come up with the criteria for psychiatric disorders in DSM? Do you know the controversies behind DSM? Do you know few decades ago homosexuality was regarded as a mental disorder? Do you know that there are researchers who want to introduce a new "psychiatric disorder" (i.e., hypersexual disorder) in the next edition of DSM for people who have sex more than 7 times a week ? Here is the criteria for major depression: Diagnostic criteria: Depressed mood and/or loss of interest or pleasure in life activities for at least 2 weeks and at least five of the following symptoms that cause clinically significant impairment in social, work, or other important areas of functioning almost every day 1. Depressed mood most of the day. 2. Diminished interest or pleasure in all or most activities. 3. Significant unintentional weight loss or gain. 4. Insomnia or sleeping too much. 5. Agitation or psychomotor retardation noticed by others. 6. Fatigue or loss of energy. 7. Feelings of worthlessness or excessive guilt. 8. Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness. 9. Recurrent thoughts of death (APA, 2000, p. 356). I am sure everyone has met some of its criteria at some point in their life. Without a real diagnosis, you really can't say if the person has a major depression. Even with a diagnosis, how do you know the doctor is making the right diagnosis with SUCH VAGUE criteria? Edit: I am very aware of what DanBC has pointed out about the other criteria: i) at least 2 weeks ii) and at least five of the following symptoms iii) clinically significant impairment in social, work, or other important areas of functioning almost every day. BUT THEN, the question becomes "Why 2 week?" "Why at least five of the symptoms?" Who came up with the numbers? Let me tell you, the DSM committee have a lot of disagreement about those. Those numbers are not some magic numbers that once you pass that threshold, you suddenly become clinical depressed.
- ErrantX 14y ago
  I've always felt depression is only somewhat understood, as you say it's hard to diagnose. For example, #7 is a common one for me - and you simply can't see it or diagnose it unless I tell you. But you can usually tell from other things; like the fact I get obsessed with ideas and spend a lot of time walking (i.e. thinking/brooding). I agree with you; and I wasn't exactly trying to make a diagnosis over the internet. I was trying to point out that although Taren seems so certain he was not depressed, she makes some claims which are very much not the be-all-and-end-all of depression. And that some of the activities she describes are common tells for depression. My point being; it's not simple, and depression is a complex and evil thing.
christensen_emc 14y ago
I went through a period of depression two years back. My family and friends were the last people to notice it. I put on a strong face for them and went out of my way not to worry them. The people who did notice were professors and classmates, people who I didn't make much of an effort to "impress". When those close to me started to realize they all began to rationalize it as being the result of drugs or sleep loss or a recent break up. You just aren't the type of person to be depressed they said, it's not like you. Sad as it may be, they knew even less about how I was than random strangers on the bus. I suspect a lot of it had to do with how they viewed depression and the stigma surrounding it.
cpher 14y ago
Thanks for these thoughts. It makes me wonder about Jody Sherman. I didn't know the man, yet every thing I've read about him sounds like he would be amazing to be around--and a great friend. He, maybe more so than Aaron, had even more to look forward to (i.e. no federal lawsuit, etc). And yet, Jody chose the same end. So sad.

by ErrantX 14y ago

thaumaturgy 14y ago

I would have loved to have seen this comment of yours at the top of the thread instead; I agree with everything in it. Further, I'll also step forward as someone who also deals regularly with crippling depression; being more open about it is what I've resolved to do after Aaron's suicide, and the suicide in November of one of my clients. (I've written only a very little about it before, http://www.robsheldon.com/blog/depression-programming/ http://www.robsheldon.com/blog/depression-programming/) You're absolutely right that we can be sneaky. A huge part of that is the stigma associated with depression. I'm certain that if all of my clients knew about it, I'd lose some of them for the simple fact that they'd consider me unreliable in the long term. So, when Taren mentioned that she'd been "reading up" on depression, and concluded that that wasn't what Aaron was suffering from, I did cringe a little. I came to the comments here expecting to find some discussion of depression; what I didn't expect was the top comment completely dismissing Aaron's suicide as being only about depression. Depression is probably different for different people, like most things. Mine simply makes me more susceptible to struggling when life gets hard. I'm rarely depressed when the sun is shining and there's money in the bank account and my car is working and my business is good and my friends and family are happy. When too many of those things are off, I feel it intensely and my default biochemical response is to crawl into a hole and want to disappear. I have to fight my way back out of that, every time. So I find Aaron's case very easy to empathize with. If I were in his situation -- inasmuch as I understand his situation at this point -- I'm honestly not sure what I would do. I can tell you that I'd feel overpowered, hopeless, and defeated. I can also tell you that I would want to punch anyone in the face who said that if I chose to commit suicide as a result of the situation, it would be primarily because of my depression.

xijuan 14y ago

Do you know how psychiatrists or clinical psychologists diagnose depression? Have you read the DSM? Do you know how they come up with the criteria for psychiatric disorders in DSM? Do you know the controversies behind DSM? Do you know few decades ago homosexuality was regarded as a mental disorder? Do you know that there are researchers who want to introduce a new "psychiatric disorder" (i.e., hypersexual disorder) in the next edition of DSM for people who have sex more than 7 times a week ? Here is the criteria for major depression: Diagnostic criteria: Depressed mood and/or loss of interest or pleasure in life activities for at least 2 weeks and at least five of the following symptoms that cause clinically significant impairment in social, work, or other important areas of functioning almost every day 1. Depressed mood most of the day. 2. Diminished interest or pleasure in all or most activities. 3. Significant unintentional weight loss or gain. 4. Insomnia or sleeping too much. 5. Agitation or psychomotor retardation noticed by others. 6. Fatigue or loss of energy. 7. Feelings of worthlessness or excessive guilt. 8. Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness. 9. Recurrent thoughts of death (APA, 2000, p. 356). I am sure everyone has met some of its criteria at some point in their life. Without a real diagnosis, you really can't say if the person has a major depression. Even with a diagnosis, how do you know the doctor is making the right diagnosis with SUCH VAGUE criteria? Edit: I am very aware of what DanBC has pointed out about the other criteria: i) at least 2 weeks ii) and at least five of the following symptoms iii) clinically significant impairment in social, work, or other important areas of functioning almost every day. BUT THEN, the question becomes "Why 2 week?" "Why at least five of the symptoms?" Who came up with the numbers? Let me tell you, the DSM committee have a lot of disagreement about those. Those numbers are not some magic numbers that once you pass that threshold, you suddenly become clinical depressed.

ErrantX 14y ago
I've always felt depression is only somewhat understood, as you say it's hard to diagnose. For example, #7 is a common one for me - and you simply can't see it or diagnose it unless I tell you. But you can usually tell from other things; like the fact I get obsessed with ideas and spend a lot of time walking (i.e. thinking/brooding). I agree with you; and I wasn't exactly trying to make a diagnosis over the internet. I was trying to point out that although Taren seems so certain he was not depressed, she makes some claims which are very much not the be-all-and-end-all of depression. And that some of the activities she describes are common tells for depression. My point being; it's not simple, and depression is a complex and evil thing.

christensen_emc 14y ago

I went through a period of depression two years back. My family and friends were the last people to notice it. I put on a strong face for them and went out of my way not to worry them. The people who did notice were professors and classmates, people who I didn't make much of an effort to "impress". When those close to me started to realize they all began to rationalize it as being the result of drugs or sleep loss or a recent break up. You just aren't the type of person to be depressed they said, it's not like you. Sad as it may be, they knew even less about how I was than random strangers on the bus. I suspect a lot of it had to do with how they viewed depression and the stigma surrounding it.

cpher 14y ago

Thanks for these thoughts. It makes me wonder about Jody Sherman. I didn't know the man, yet every thing I've read about him sounds like he would be amazing to be around--and a great friend. He, maybe more so than Aaron, had even more to look forward to (i.e. no federal lawsuit, etc). And yet, Jody chose the same end. So sad.