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Fact: CO2 traps heat. Fact: CO2, which was pulled in by plants and processed into hydrocarbons and was buried in the earth for millions of years, is now being

by JPKab 14y ago

Fact: CO2 traps heat. Fact: CO2, which was pulled in by plants and processed into hydrocarbons and was buried in the earth for millions of years, is now being reinjected by use of said hydrocarbons for energy back into the atmosphere after a millions years long abscence. Fact: This is causing a measurable increase in PPM concentrations of CO2. I think its pretty fucking logical that this would cause or contribute to warming. Obviously figuring out the magnitude is difficult.

olalonde 14y ago
I'm on neither side of the debate but I can tell you that saying stuff like "I think its pretty fucking logical" automatically puts you in the zealots category. I would advise you not to use such emotionally charged language if you want to get your point across, especially not on HN.
- JPKab 14y ago
  Zealots? I wouldn't say that, considering that I don't even think that reduction of CO2 emissions on a global scale is a realistic solution. The zealots tend to stick with that one though. I'm actually wishing for a debate on the best way to deal with rapid increases of CO2 concentrations, either through reduction or geo-engineering solutions. BTW, calling it a "debate" pretty much automatically puts you in a category also. The only reason it's even put into the public's mind as a debate is because of the huge business interests which are threatened by the science. You might as well say that you aren't on either side of the "cigarettes cause lung cancer" debate. Do you think Exxon is going to do anything different than R.J. Reynolds and Phillip Morris did when they spent decades challenging the science of tobacco induced cancers? I am all for questioning and challenging the science WITH SCIENCE, as opposed to economic arguments and ad hominem attacks.
  - vixen99 14y ago
    Your use of the emotive word 'fucking' in this context is suggestive of a zealot but you confirm with your second paragraph above. Crystal clear that you simply have not read any of the recent peer-reviewed literature relating to climate. If you want to comment on this subject in public, get informed first. Once you have done so your comments will be a good deal more nuanced.
    - JPKab 14y ago
      My use of the word 'fucking' was more of a casual, matter of fact nature, If this was verbal, it would be a soft spoken, rather than a shouted expletive. But to be fair, use of foul language clearly diminishes any written statement. Your commment indicates that something I said has been contradicted in recent peer reviewed research. However, your statement is completely nebulous. What peer-reviewed research? What points in my statements prove I'm not aware of said research? Can you elaborate, or perhaps provide a link to said study? I am always interested in learning more facts about this topic.
      - ghshephard 14y ago
        I'm not really paying much attention to this thread, but I kind of skimmed over your comment when you started with the foul language as well. At the very least, it doesn't win you any points, and at worst, people ignore what you write.
scarmig 14y ago
It's important to emphasize that CO2 is important mainly for its role as the primary forcing: the actual temperature swing it would cause by itself is minimal. It's the feedbacks that kill us (and which are, unfortunately, quite a bit messier than the very clear humankind-CO2-greenhouse effect connection that exists).
sopooneo 14y ago
Correct has no need for obscenity.
- illuminate 14y ago
  And tone trolling over indirect, untargeted profanity distracts unnecessarily from any topic.
pdonis 14y ago
Obviously figuring out the magnitude is difficult. In other words, you are punting at precisely the critical point in the analysis. Fact: If you just calculate the effect of CO2 on its own, it's too small to be significant. To make CO2 significant, you have to assume large positive feedbacks elsewhere in the system that amplify the effect of CO2. That assumption has not been validated.
- liber8 14y ago
  I find it interesting that this is the only post out of 190 or so that mentions what the actual debate is about. There are very few authorities who flatly deny the planet has warmed a degree or so over the last 100 years. There are very few authorities that deny that man is the most likely cause of this warming. And yet, nearly every post in this whole thread is essentially debating how moronic, on a scale of 1-10, those "climate deniers" are. I find this even more fascinating from a place like HN, where the users are generally very intelligent and often have some science education. It's ironic that the users ranting against these uneducated people who don't believe in climate change are exhibiting the very same sort of ignorance they decry: they've accepted the media's characterization of the debate. To clarify: those in the Al Gore camp calling for drastic reductions of CO2 are essentially asking the third world to remain poor, and are asking the first world to become a little less rich. Their justification is that there will be catastrophic results unless emissions are immediately curbed. The reasoned opposition is not that humans cannot affect the atmosphere, or that warming hasn't happened. The argument is that the hypothesized positive feedback loops that make the models predict catastrophic warming are wrong. Interestingly, many scientists have continued to lower their forecasts for just how sensitive the climate is (See http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/a-closer-look-at-moderating-views-of-climate-sensitivity/ http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/a-closer-look-a..., for an example in the news just today).
  - pdonis 14y ago
    they've accepted the media's characterization of the debate It's not just the media's characterization; it's the characterization of mainstream climate science. They are equating any opposition to the "consensus" to being a "denier". There are lots of positions in between. Thanks for the support, btw. :-)

by JPKab 14y ago

olalonde 14y ago

I'm on neither side of the debate but I can tell you that saying stuff like "I think its pretty fucking logical" automatically puts you in the zealots category. I would advise you not to use such emotionally charged language if you want to get your point across, especially not on HN.

JPKab 14y ago
Zealots? I wouldn't say that, considering that I don't even think that reduction of CO2 emissions on a global scale is a realistic solution. The zealots tend to stick with that one though. I'm actually wishing for a debate on the best way to deal with rapid increases of CO2 concentrations, either through reduction or geo-engineering solutions. BTW, calling it a "debate" pretty much automatically puts you in a category also. The only reason it's even put into the public's mind as a debate is because of the huge business interests which are threatened by the science. You might as well say that you aren't on either side of the "cigarettes cause lung cancer" debate. Do you think Exxon is going to do anything different than R.J. Reynolds and Phillip Morris did when they spent decades challenging the science of tobacco induced cancers? I am all for questioning and challenging the science WITH SCIENCE, as opposed to economic arguments and ad hominem attacks.
- vixen99 14y ago
  Your use of the emotive word 'fucking' in this context is suggestive of a zealot but you confirm with your second paragraph above. Crystal clear that you simply have not read any of the recent peer-reviewed literature relating to climate. If you want to comment on this subject in public, get informed first. Once you have done so your comments will be a good deal more nuanced.
  - JPKab 14y ago
    My use of the word 'fucking' was more of a casual, matter of fact nature, If this was verbal, it would be a soft spoken, rather than a shouted expletive. But to be fair, use of foul language clearly diminishes any written statement. Your commment indicates that something I said has been contradicted in recent peer reviewed research. However, your statement is completely nebulous. What peer-reviewed research? What points in my statements prove I'm not aware of said research? Can you elaborate, or perhaps provide a link to said study? I am always interested in learning more facts about this topic.
    - ghshephard 14y ago
      I'm not really paying much attention to this thread, but I kind of skimmed over your comment when you started with the foul language as well. At the very least, it doesn't win you any points, and at worst, people ignore what you write.

scarmig 14y ago

It's important to emphasize that CO2 is important mainly for its role as the primary forcing: the actual temperature swing it would cause by itself is minimal. It's the feedbacks that kill us (and which are, unfortunately, quite a bit messier than the very clear humankind-CO2-greenhouse effect connection that exists).

sopooneo 14y ago

Correct has no need for obscenity.

illuminate 14y ago
And tone trolling over indirect, untargeted profanity distracts unnecessarily from any topic.

pdonis 14y ago

Obviously figuring out the magnitude is difficult. In other words, you are punting at precisely the critical point in the analysis. Fact: If you just calculate the effect of CO2 on its own, it's too small to be significant. To make CO2 significant, you have to assume large positive feedbacks elsewhere in the system that amplify the effect of CO2. That assumption has not been validated.

liber8 14y ago
I find it interesting that this is the only post out of 190 or so that mentions what the actual debate is about. There are very few authorities who flatly deny the planet has warmed a degree or so over the last 100 years. There are very few authorities that deny that man is the most likely cause of this warming. And yet, nearly every post in this whole thread is essentially debating how moronic, on a scale of 1-10, those "climate deniers" are. I find this even more fascinating from a place like HN, where the users are generally very intelligent and often have some science education. It's ironic that the users ranting against these uneducated people who don't believe in climate change are exhibiting the very same sort of ignorance they decry: they've accepted the media's characterization of the debate. To clarify: those in the Al Gore camp calling for drastic reductions of CO2 are essentially asking the third world to remain poor, and are asking the first world to become a little less rich. Their justification is that there will be catastrophic results unless emissions are immediately curbed. The reasoned opposition is not that humans cannot affect the atmosphere, or that warming hasn't happened. The argument is that the hypothesized positive feedback loops that make the models predict catastrophic warming are wrong. Interestingly, many scientists have continued to lower their forecasts for just how sensitive the climate is (See http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/a-closer-look-at-moderating-views-of-climate-sensitivity/ http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/a-closer-look-a..., for an example in the news just today).
- pdonis 14y ago
  they've accepted the media's characterization of the debate It's not just the media's characterization; it's the characterization of mainstream climate science. They are equating any opposition to the "consensus" to being a "denier". There are lots of positions in between. Thanks for the support, btw. :-)