5 ms·

The software development community attracts socially awkward people by accepting them- and consequently accepting behaviors that are not seen as acceptable in m

The software development community attracts socially awkward people by accepting them- and consequently accepting behaviors that are not seen as acceptable in most parts of society. For example, most of the software development community would see a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested as innocent, awkward, and empathize with the guy's rejection (or lack there of, since he probably doesn't have the courage to directly ask her out). They wouldn't consider how it feels to the girl have someone watching you, following you, looking up private information online, and invading her space.

Firehed 14y ago
I imagine most developers can tell the difference between 'pursuing' and 'stalking'.
thaumaturgy 14y ago
I don't think "we" as a community can or should outright reject people who behave badly. We can only reject (or try to change) their behavior. Let's not forget that 8+ hours a day in front of a little glowing box nearly requires a specific personality type. If people who are bad at dealing with other people are blocked from software development, the field would suffer (a lot). > ...a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested... To be fair, you came >this< close to describing the plot of the average romcom here. The only difference between "sweet" and "creepy" is in judging whether or not the person is interested, or might become interested. A lot of nerds (I use the term with love here) aren't even good at mingling at social events, let alone reading whether or not their advances towards someone are going to turn out well. (This isn't limited to man-woman relationships either, as a recent case shows.) ...I wonder if maybe a huge root cause of this problem is simply that there are few enough women in our field that any attention from men feels like it's too much? I have to imagine that if you got regular, "Hey, are you busy Saturday night?" inquiries from different guys, you'd start to feel a little like chum in shark-infested waters.
- itsybitsycoder 14y ago
  Romcoms are fiction. There are loads of "romantic" movies where, if acted out IRL, the hero would be rightly arrested on felony charges. They're not meant to be taken as instructional.
  - thaumaturgy 14y ago
    Yeah, I know that. And yet, people love them anyway. Again: "sweet" vs. "creepy" is all down to reading the situation.
    - itsybitsycoder 14y ago
      If you're suggesting that nerds are incapable of "reading" the difference between fantasy and reality, I'm not really sure what to say. Certainly most nerds I know are capable of doing so. That's such a basic thing that I don't even think that falls into the category of social skills anymore. If nerds think that seeing something in fiction is a good reason to try it IRL then the anti-videogame-violence crowd has a lot more going for it than I thought.
      - thaumaturgy 14y ago
        I think at this point there's a fairly well-accepted connection between autism spectrum disorders and the software development community. (If you really need citations for this, I'll provide some.) One of the common side-effects of autism spectrum disorders is an impairment in interpreting other people's facial expressions, body language, and vocal tones. When I mentioned the romcom stuff, it wasn't because I was arguing that it was a how-to or that nerds couldn't distinguish fiction from reality. It was only there to illustrate that the line between "creepy" behavior and behavior that in the ideal sense might be considered "sweet" is really blurry, and that it's dependent largely on receptivity of the people involved, and that as a trend, people in software development have a more difficult time correctly interpreting these situations. I could go a lot more in-depth on this. I think there's a lot of very interesting cultural stuff happening in the U.S. (and to a larger extent, Japan) in male-female relations, I think there's a lot of uncertainty now about what constitutes "attractive" behavior and what doesn't, and I think that the ability to correctly interpret body language and other subtle cues is the only substantial edge anyone has over other people in this environment. However, none of that should be read as a defense of behavior like posting fake nudge images of someone or outright harassment or any of the other things that women have recently been rightly complaining about. I was only wondering aloud earlier whether the combination of the ratio of men to women in software, combined with social impairment by a significant number of people in the industry, might be contributing to the problem. I'm not really sure what else to say to defend my earlier comment; I honestly wasn't expecting it to be controversial. At this point though, if you'd like to continue to disagree, and you expect me to respond, I'd like for you to at least argue against what I actually write (e.g., I did not say, "nerds are incapable of 'reading' the difference between fantasy and reality"), and I'd love it if you bundled some kind of insight or evidence with your argument.

Firehed 14y ago

I imagine most developers can tell the difference between 'pursuing' and 'stalking'.

thaumaturgy 14y ago

I don't think "we" as a community can or should outright reject people who behave badly. We can only reject (or try to change) their behavior. Let's not forget that 8+ hours a day in front of a little glowing box nearly requires a specific personality type. If people who are bad at dealing with other people are blocked from software development, the field would suffer (a lot). > ...a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested... To be fair, you came >this< close to describing the plot of the average romcom here. The only difference between "sweet" and "creepy" is in judging whether or not the person is interested, or might become interested. A lot of nerds (I use the term with love here) aren't even good at mingling at social events, let alone reading whether or not their advances towards someone are going to turn out well. (This isn't limited to man-woman relationships either, as a recent case shows.) ...I wonder if maybe a huge root cause of this problem is simply that there are few enough women in our field that any attention from men feels like it's too much? I have to imagine that if you got regular, "Hey, are you busy Saturday night?" inquiries from different guys, you'd start to feel a little like chum in shark-infested waters.

itsybitsycoder 14y ago
Romcoms are fiction. There are loads of "romantic" movies where, if acted out IRL, the hero would be rightly arrested on felony charges. They're not meant to be taken as instructional.
- thaumaturgy 14y ago
  Yeah, I know that. And yet, people love them anyway. Again: "sweet" vs. "creepy" is all down to reading the situation.
  - itsybitsycoder 14y ago
    If you're suggesting that nerds are incapable of "reading" the difference between fantasy and reality, I'm not really sure what to say. Certainly most nerds I know are capable of doing so. That's such a basic thing that I don't even think that falls into the category of social skills anymore. If nerds think that seeing something in fiction is a good reason to try it IRL then the anti-videogame-violence crowd has a lot more going for it than I thought.
    - thaumaturgy 14y ago
      I think at this point there's a fairly well-accepted connection between autism spectrum disorders and the software development community. (If you really need citations for this, I'll provide some.) One of the common side-effects of autism spectrum disorders is an impairment in interpreting other people's facial expressions, body language, and vocal tones. When I mentioned the romcom stuff, it wasn't because I was arguing that it was a how-to or that nerds couldn't distinguish fiction from reality. It was only there to illustrate that the line between "creepy" behavior and behavior that in the ideal sense might be considered "sweet" is really blurry, and that it's dependent largely on receptivity of the people involved, and that as a trend, people in software development have a more difficult time correctly interpreting these situations. I could go a lot more in-depth on this. I think there's a lot of very interesting cultural stuff happening in the U.S. (and to a larger extent, Japan) in male-female relations, I think there's a lot of uncertainty now about what constitutes "attractive" behavior and what doesn't, and I think that the ability to correctly interpret body language and other subtle cues is the only substantial edge anyone has over other people in this environment. However, none of that should be read as a defense of behavior like posting fake nudge images of someone or outright harassment or any of the other things that women have recently been rightly complaining about. I was only wondering aloud earlier whether the combination of the ratio of men to women in software, combined with social impairment by a significant number of people in the industry, might be contributing to the problem. I'm not really sure what else to say to defend my earlier comment; I honestly wasn't expecting it to be controversial. At this point though, if you'd like to continue to disagree, and you expect me to respond, I'd like for you to at least argue against what I actually write (e.g., I did not say, "nerds are incapable of 'reading' the difference between fantasy and reality"), and I'd love it if you bundled some kind of insight or evidence with your argument.