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That’s the point of the article though: you don’t need to be an activist, but silence itself is a negative contribution. Simply the act of tweeting links to suc

That’s the point of the article though: you don’t need to be an activist, but silence itself is a negative contribution. Simply the act of tweeting links to such articles and saying you agree with it, is enough to let people know you’ve got their backs in this matter.

philwelch 14y ago
Silence is a non-contribution. You put too much stock in the leftist notion "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", an interesting euphemism for the old slogan "if you're not with us, you're against us."
- KuraFire 14y ago
  I find it funny you call that a “leftist notion” when it was the conservative right wing in the US that most recently used that as their narrative for years.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    The "problem/solution" formulation is almost entirely used by leftists, and I use that term inclusively of all identity politics. The semantically equivalent "with us/against us" formulation has a rather more diverse history. I originally attributed it to the fascists, as I recall it was a favorite of Mussolini, but it appears Lenin was fond of it as well.
- KuraFire 14y ago
  Silence is not a non-contribution. You're not getting it, but then, you already told us you don't wish to spend even a second learning more about this issue, so I guess this won't help you either: http://tommorris.org/posts/8084 http://tommorris.org/posts/8084
  - philwelch 14y ago
    I've "learned" plenty about this issue, and the main thing I've gained is a greater appreciation for the power of ideology to obstruct rational thought. The symptoms of ideology include disproportionate emotional reaction to disagreement and accusing people of "ignorance" when they disagree with you. Let's disengage from that, if we can, and try to answer my question. How is silence an action rather than a non-action? All you've asserted (well, you've let bloggers assert it for you, which doesn't add any more weight than saying it yourself) is that speaking out would be appreciated. I'll grant that. But just because action is appreciated doesn't turn non-action into action. It simply doesn't follow. The purpose of this "with us or against us" tactic is to bully sympathetic people into radicalism, which is why radical bullies like Lenin and Mussolini were so fond of it. It is a self-replication mechanism for ideology. Which is why you become so angry when someone merely says "I have nothing to speak out about". Apparently one is supposed to go looking for outrage that motivates them to join your side when none is apparent, rather than simply acting on the evidence they have at hand. I reject your bullying, reject the implication that I should speak out about things I have never witnessed just to further your agenda, and reserve the right to speak out about and solve the problems I do see in a calm and reasoned fashion.
    - Zikes 14y ago
      That's the most clearly I've heard this argument stated thus far. Kudos, and thank you.
    - KuraFire 14y ago
      When people tell you they are in need of help, doing nothing is the action of not giving help. There's no bullying or anything like that going on, here, and you're being disingenuous by presenting it as such (and also, you're being an asshole by comparing me to dictators). You've stated your refusal to learn more about this subject, it's disingenuous to try and turn that around claiming you already know “plenty” when you clearly don't, because you're arguing that this isn't a massively systemic problem, when all evidence clearly points out that it is. Just because you don't see a problem doesn't mean it isn't there.
      - 14y ago
Zikes 14y ago
If I have to enumerate every single common sense evil in all its degrees and flavors to be considered a good and honest citizen, then I will never finish writing.
xyandnoz 14y ago
Actually I think silence is still preferable to what happens more frequently -- the sexist trolls are actively praised and rewarded in the tech community. Not for their sexism, of course, but for their activism on behalf of freedom of speech, etc. We don't just fail to speak against them, we -- in the tech world -- often hail them as heroes for their other work, while conveniently ignoring the misogyny or writing it off as just "sure, he's not politically correct, but..." or "sure, he can hurt feelings and ruffle feathers but..." Or the way Reddit is still seen as a "good" place despite a model that not just encourages but needs people like ViolentAcrez. We don't have to speak out about the bad things in order to make a difference... We can start by not speaking FOR the contexts in which it is not just tolerated but subtly, behind the scenes, reinforced. Stopping support for sites that allow this behavior is a huge step that does not require speaking out. Because most sites that "allow" it are also, one way or another, also encouraging it. We get the behavior that we reinforce.
- KuraFire 14y ago
  I find it interesting you criticize Reddit for things that Hacker News is just as guilty of. The lack of decent moderation and peer-policing here has given rise to things like ShitHNSays (now defunct) and lots of sexist crap being spouted and praised here. HN is getting better at it, sure, but only because people are speaking out against it more frequently. Which…is exactly what the post encourages people to do.

philwelch 14y ago

Silence is a non-contribution. You put too much stock in the leftist notion "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", an interesting euphemism for the old slogan "if you're not with us, you're against us."

KuraFire 14y ago
I find it funny you call that a “leftist notion” when it was the conservative right wing in the US that most recently used that as their narrative for years.
- philwelch 14y ago
  The "problem/solution" formulation is almost entirely used by leftists, and I use that term inclusively of all identity politics. The semantically equivalent "with us/against us" formulation has a rather more diverse history. I originally attributed it to the fascists, as I recall it was a favorite of Mussolini, but it appears Lenin was fond of it as well.
KuraFire 14y ago
Silence is not a non-contribution. You're not getting it, but then, you already told us you don't wish to spend even a second learning more about this issue, so I guess this won't help you either: http://tommorris.org/posts/8084 http://tommorris.org/posts/8084
- philwelch 14y ago
  I've "learned" plenty about this issue, and the main thing I've gained is a greater appreciation for the power of ideology to obstruct rational thought. The symptoms of ideology include disproportionate emotional reaction to disagreement and accusing people of "ignorance" when they disagree with you. Let's disengage from that, if we can, and try to answer my question. How is silence an action rather than a non-action? All you've asserted (well, you've let bloggers assert it for you, which doesn't add any more weight than saying it yourself) is that speaking out would be appreciated. I'll grant that. But just because action is appreciated doesn't turn non-action into action. It simply doesn't follow. The purpose of this "with us or against us" tactic is to bully sympathetic people into radicalism, which is why radical bullies like Lenin and Mussolini were so fond of it. It is a self-replication mechanism for ideology. Which is why you become so angry when someone merely says "I have nothing to speak out about". Apparently one is supposed to go looking for outrage that motivates them to join your side when none is apparent, rather than simply acting on the evidence they have at hand. I reject your bullying, reject the implication that I should speak out about things I have never witnessed just to further your agenda, and reserve the right to speak out about and solve the problems I do see in a calm and reasoned fashion.
  - Zikes 14y ago
    That's the most clearly I've heard this argument stated thus far. Kudos, and thank you.
  - KuraFire 14y ago
    When people tell you they are in need of help, doing nothing is the action of not giving help. There's no bullying or anything like that going on, here, and you're being disingenuous by presenting it as such (and also, you're being an asshole by comparing me to dictators). You've stated your refusal to learn more about this subject, it's disingenuous to try and turn that around claiming you already know “plenty” when you clearly don't, because you're arguing that this isn't a massively systemic problem, when all evidence clearly points out that it is. Just because you don't see a problem doesn't mean it isn't there.
    - 14y ago

Zikes 14y ago

If I have to enumerate every single common sense evil in all its degrees and flavors to be considered a good and honest citizen, then I will never finish writing.

xyandnoz 14y ago

Actually I think silence is still preferable to what happens more frequently -- the sexist trolls are actively praised and rewarded in the tech community. Not for their sexism, of course, but for their activism on behalf of freedom of speech, etc. We don't just fail to speak against them, we -- in the tech world -- often hail them as heroes for their other work, while conveniently ignoring the misogyny or writing it off as just "sure, he's not politically correct, but..." or "sure, he can hurt feelings and ruffle feathers but..." Or the way Reddit is still seen as a "good" place despite a model that not just encourages but needs people like ViolentAcrez. We don't have to speak out about the bad things in order to make a difference... We can start by not speaking FOR the contexts in which it is not just tolerated but subtly, behind the scenes, reinforced. Stopping support for sites that allow this behavior is a huge step that does not require speaking out. Because most sites that "allow" it are also, one way or another, also encouraging it. We get the behavior that we reinforce.

KuraFire 14y ago
I find it interesting you criticize Reddit for things that Hacker News is just as guilty of. The lack of decent moderation and peer-policing here has given rise to things like ShitHNSays (now defunct) and lots of sexist crap being spouted and praised here. HN is getting better at it, sure, but only because people are speaking out against it more frequently. Which…is exactly what the post encourages people to do.