7 ms·

What's with the silence?

25 points by KuraFire 14y ago

NathanKP 14y ago
The most telling thing for me when I was reading this post is that I was just looking at the words and assumed the author was a woman, because they were writing about sexism and poor treatment of women in the tech industry. It wasn't until I scrolled back up and looked at the image in the sidebar that I realized the author of the post was actually male. Not that men don't ever write about such issues, but I guess I'm so used to seeing such articles penned by women that I assumed that this one was also written by a woman. That mental bias I experienced alone is demonstrative of how rarely men speak out.
Zikes 14y ago
Honestly, I'm just here to learn and make a living. There are many issues in society which I abhor, including all forms of sexism, corruption, violence, the list goes on. I try to live to the best of my ability and without contributing negatively to any of the aforementioned issues, but I have my own crosses to bear, I cannot carry all of yours.
- KuraFire 14y ago
  That’s the point of the article though: you don’t need to be an activist, but silence itself is a negative contribution. Simply the act of tweeting links to such articles and saying you agree with it, is enough to let people know you’ve got their backs in this matter.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    Silence is a non-contribution. You put too much stock in the leftist notion "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", an interesting euphemism for the old slogan "if you're not with us, you're against us."
    - KuraFire 14y ago
      I find it funny you call that a “leftist notion” when it was the conservative right wing in the US that most recently used that as their narrative for years.
      - philwelch 14y ago
        The "problem/solution" formulation is almost entirely used by leftists, and I use that term inclusively of all identity politics. The semantically equivalent "with us/against us" formulation has a rather more diverse history. I originally attributed it to the fascists, as I recall it was a favorite of Mussolini, but it appears Lenin was fond of it as well.
    - KuraFire 14y ago
      Silence is not a non-contribution. You're not getting it, but then, you already told us you don't wish to spend even a second learning more about this issue, so I guess this won't help you either: http://tommorris.org/posts/8084 http://tommorris.org/posts/8084
      - philwelch 14y ago
        I've "learned" plenty about this issue, and the main thing I've gained is a greater appreciation for the power of ideology to obstruct rational thought. The symptoms of ideology include disproportionate emotional reaction to disagreement and accusing people of "ignorance" when they disagree with you. Let's disengage from that, if we can, and try to answer my question. How is silence an action rather than a non-action? All you've asserted (well, you've let bloggers assert it for you, which doesn't add any more weight than saying it yourself) is that speaking out would be appreciated. I'll grant that. But just because action is appreciated doesn't turn non-action into action. It simply doesn't follow. The purpose of this "with us or against us" tactic is to bully sympathetic people into radicalism, which is why radical bullies like Lenin and Mussolini were so fond of it. It is a self-replication mechanism for ideology. Which is why you become so angry when someone merely says "I have nothing to speak out about". Apparently one is supposed to go looking for outrage that motivates them to join your side when none is apparent, rather than simply acting on the evidence they have at hand. I reject your bullying, reject the implication that I should speak out about things I have never witnessed just to further your agenda, and reserve the right to speak out about and solve the problems I do see in a calm and reasoned fashion.
  - Zikes 14y ago
    If I have to enumerate every single common sense evil in all its degrees and flavors to be considered a good and honest citizen, then I will never finish writing.
  - xyandnoz 14y ago
    Actually I think silence is still preferable to what happens more frequently -- the sexist trolls are actively praised and rewarded in the tech community. Not for their sexism, of course, but for their activism on behalf of freedom of speech, etc. We don't just fail to speak against them, we -- in the tech world -- often hail them as heroes for their other work, while conveniently ignoring the misogyny or writing it off as just "sure, he's not politically correct, but..." or "sure, he can hurt feelings and ruffle feathers but..." Or the way Reddit is still seen as a "good" place despite a model that not just encourages but needs people like ViolentAcrez. We don't have to speak out about the bad things in order to make a difference... We can start by not speaking FOR the contexts in which it is not just tolerated but subtly, behind the scenes, reinforced. Stopping support for sites that allow this behavior is a huge step that does not require speaking out. Because most sites that "allow" it are also, one way or another, also encouraging it. We get the behavior that we reinforce.
    - KuraFire 14y ago
      I find it interesting you criticize Reddit for things that Hacker News is just as guilty of. The lack of decent moderation and peer-policing here has given rise to things like ShitHNSays (now defunct) and lots of sexist crap being spouted and praised here. HN is getting better at it, sure, but only because people are speaking out against it more frequently. Which…is exactly what the post encourages people to do.
- wilkie 14y ago
  Think about how little time you and I have to devote to these issues. And then think about how we don't have to suffer them. And yet, women and your non-white-male must spend some of their time (that time we may spend coding, or reading, etc) to deal with discrimination, sexism, and the like. The minimum one could do to lessen this burden is to simply look around and listen with the determination to understand their issues, and with that understanding, speak out and be heard so that others may understand as well. Can we really say that we won't do this? Can the rest of us that are not commenting really let people suggest inaction and let those we care about down? Let's come together to be better than that.
mwetzler 14y ago
Thank you Faruk! Keep up the good work.
philwelch 14y ago
In my admittedly limited experience, I haven't seen anything to speak out about. I appreciate when others report their experiences and don't want to invalidate them, but if I'm "silent" it's because I simply have nothing to add to the conversation. Outrage propagates itself perfectly well without my help. The fact is, I've seen more outrage over sexism in the developer community than I've seen sexism in the developer community.
- KuraFire 14y ago
  You (and, especially, the women you’ve worked with) are either very fortunate, or you’re not talking to women enough for them to reveal to you what they’re experiencing. I’ve worked in several different countries, various different cultures, and I have yet to work with a woman who didn’t notice or experience various forms of sexism. And most men I know are aware of it, too, but don't necessarily know what the best way of dealing with it is. As an side, I really do suggest you read some of the stuff posted to http://everydaysexism.com/ http://everydaysexism.com/ for example. There is a chance you're not seeing the sexism for sexism.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    I don't currently work with any women in a technical capacity. When I did, I reported to her and didn't witness any problems. The women I work with in a non-technical capacity seem to do fine, though I spend more time doing my job than trying to catalogue every hidden oppression they may or may not face. Thanks for the link, but if I wanted to keep myself continually outraged over anonymous anecdotes, I'd spend more time on Reddit.
    - KuraFire 14y ago
      Well, thanks for admitting your complete and utter ignorance on this matter, expressing your refusal to educate yourself, and portraying your inflated sense of self-importance to spend time telling us all this. You've contributed nothing here other than wasting our time telling us you've no interest in being an ally to the cause.

25 points by KuraFire 14y ago

The most telling thing for me when I was reading this post is that I was just looking at the words and assumed the author was a woman, because they were writing about sexism and poor treatment of women in the tech industry. It wasn't until I scrolled back up and looked at the image in the sidebar that I realized the author of the post was actually male. Not that men don't ever write about such issues, but I guess I'm so used to seeing such articles penned by women that I assumed that this one was also written by a woman. That mental bias I experienced alone is demonstrative of how rarely men speak out.

Zikes 14y ago

Honestly, I'm just here to learn and make a living. There are many issues in society which I abhor, including all forms of sexism, corruption, violence, the list goes on. I try to live to the best of my ability and without contributing negatively to any of the aforementioned issues, but I have my own crosses to bear, I cannot carry all of yours.

KuraFire 14y ago
That’s the point of the article though: you don’t need to be an activist, but silence itself is a negative contribution. Simply the act of tweeting links to such articles and saying you agree with it, is enough to let people know you’ve got their backs in this matter.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Silence is a non-contribution. You put too much stock in the leftist notion "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", an interesting euphemism for the old slogan "if you're not with us, you're against us."
  - KuraFire 14y ago
    I find it funny you call that a “leftist notion” when it was the conservative right wing in the US that most recently used that as their narrative for years.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      The "problem/solution" formulation is almost entirely used by leftists, and I use that term inclusively of all identity politics. The semantically equivalent "with us/against us" formulation has a rather more diverse history. I originally attributed it to the fascists, as I recall it was a favorite of Mussolini, but it appears Lenin was fond of it as well.
  - KuraFire 14y ago
    Silence is not a non-contribution. You're not getting it, but then, you already told us you don't wish to spend even a second learning more about this issue, so I guess this won't help you either: http://tommorris.org/posts/8084 http://tommorris.org/posts/8084
    - philwelch 14y ago
      I've "learned" plenty about this issue, and the main thing I've gained is a greater appreciation for the power of ideology to obstruct rational thought. The symptoms of ideology include disproportionate emotional reaction to disagreement and accusing people of "ignorance" when they disagree with you. Let's disengage from that, if we can, and try to answer my question. How is silence an action rather than a non-action? All you've asserted (well, you've let bloggers assert it for you, which doesn't add any more weight than saying it yourself) is that speaking out would be appreciated. I'll grant that. But just because action is appreciated doesn't turn non-action into action. It simply doesn't follow. The purpose of this "with us or against us" tactic is to bully sympathetic people into radicalism, which is why radical bullies like Lenin and Mussolini were so fond of it. It is a self-replication mechanism for ideology. Which is why you become so angry when someone merely says "I have nothing to speak out about". Apparently one is supposed to go looking for outrage that motivates them to join your side when none is apparent, rather than simply acting on the evidence they have at hand. I reject your bullying, reject the implication that I should speak out about things I have never witnessed just to further your agenda, and reserve the right to speak out about and solve the problems I do see in a calm and reasoned fashion.
- Zikes 14y ago
  If I have to enumerate every single common sense evil in all its degrees and flavors to be considered a good and honest citizen, then I will never finish writing.
- xyandnoz 14y ago
  Actually I think silence is still preferable to what happens more frequently -- the sexist trolls are actively praised and rewarded in the tech community. Not for their sexism, of course, but for their activism on behalf of freedom of speech, etc. We don't just fail to speak against them, we -- in the tech world -- often hail them as heroes for their other work, while conveniently ignoring the misogyny or writing it off as just "sure, he's not politically correct, but..." or "sure, he can hurt feelings and ruffle feathers but..." Or the way Reddit is still seen as a "good" place despite a model that not just encourages but needs people like ViolentAcrez. We don't have to speak out about the bad things in order to make a difference... We can start by not speaking FOR the contexts in which it is not just tolerated but subtly, behind the scenes, reinforced. Stopping support for sites that allow this behavior is a huge step that does not require speaking out. Because most sites that "allow" it are also, one way or another, also encouraging it. We get the behavior that we reinforce.
  - KuraFire 14y ago
    I find it interesting you criticize Reddit for things that Hacker News is just as guilty of. The lack of decent moderation and peer-policing here has given rise to things like ShitHNSays (now defunct) and lots of sexist crap being spouted and praised here. HN is getting better at it, sure, but only because people are speaking out against it more frequently. Which…is exactly what the post encourages people to do.
wilkie 14y ago
Think about how little time you and I have to devote to these issues. And then think about how we don't have to suffer them. And yet, women and your non-white-male must spend some of their time (that time we may spend coding, or reading, etc) to deal with discrimination, sexism, and the like. The minimum one could do to lessen this burden is to simply look around and listen with the determination to understand their issues, and with that understanding, speak out and be heard so that others may understand as well. Can we really say that we won't do this? Can the rest of us that are not commenting really let people suggest inaction and let those we care about down? Let's come together to be better than that.

mwetzler 14y ago

Thank you Faruk! Keep up the good work.

philwelch 14y ago

In my admittedly limited experience, I haven't seen anything to speak out about. I appreciate when others report their experiences and don't want to invalidate them, but if I'm "silent" it's because I simply have nothing to add to the conversation. Outrage propagates itself perfectly well without my help. The fact is, I've seen more outrage over sexism in the developer community than I've seen sexism in the developer community.

KuraFire 14y ago
You (and, especially, the women you’ve worked with) are either very fortunate, or you’re not talking to women enough for them to reveal to you what they’re experiencing. I’ve worked in several different countries, various different cultures, and I have yet to work with a woman who didn’t notice or experience various forms of sexism. And most men I know are aware of it, too, but don't necessarily know what the best way of dealing with it is. As an side, I really do suggest you read some of the stuff posted to http://everydaysexism.com/ http://everydaysexism.com/ for example. There is a chance you're not seeing the sexism for sexism.
- philwelch 14y ago
  I don't currently work with any women in a technical capacity. When I did, I reported to her and didn't witness any problems. The women I work with in a non-technical capacity seem to do fine, though I spend more time doing my job than trying to catalogue every hidden oppression they may or may not face. Thanks for the link, but if I wanted to keep myself continually outraged over anonymous anecdotes, I'd spend more time on Reddit.
  - KuraFire 14y ago
    Well, thanks for admitting your complete and utter ignorance on this matter, expressing your refusal to educate yourself, and portraying your inflated sense of self-importance to spend time telling us all this. You've contributed nothing here other than wasting our time telling us you've no interest in being an ally to the cause.