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How do you know the motivation of this person? Every time one of these stories come up, someone tries to call other people out for rationalizing. It's not ratio

by detst 14y ago

How do you know the motivation of this person? Every time one of these stories come up, someone tries to call other people out for rationalizing. It's not rationalizing, it's calling it as they see it: someone being an asshole. If you want blatant sexism, FTA: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys". That's sexism. It's not denial if you don't know the motivation. Why is it so important to label these actions a certain way when we can just call it as it clearly is? Trying to label everything that may or may not be sexism doesn't help the cause. Most of us know there is rampant sexism. Arguing about this just detracts from the real problem. There are more than enough obvious instances to demonstrate the problem. EDIT: for the 2 down-voters so far: the point I'm making is that sexism is a major problem but trying to ascribe motivation to something with uncertainty is intellectual dishonesty that does nothing but detract from the real problem.

nollidge 14y ago
Do you legitimately think we could remove gender from the situation and it would've played out in the same way?
- Tichy 14y ago
  Cases of men being stalked do exist.
  - wiredfool 14y ago
    So do zebras. But in this case, if you hear hooves behind you, bet on the horse, not the zebra.
  - throwaway54-762 14y ago
    Exists != happens systematically. Something like fully 1/3-1/4 of women are harassed or raped during the course of their life. ONE IN FOUR. Can you imagine, one out of every four men you know in tech being stalked, harassed, or abused? While men being stalked is terrible, it simply isn't on the same scale as the stalking of women.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      The question was if a similar scenario could have played out for a man. I don't know what your answer has to do with anything. I am as sorry for women who have been raped as the next guy. Wish I could help prevent such things happening. I actually started researching that a bit. I grant that I am not yet convinced of the 1 in 4 statistics (see http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html for example), but in any case women do have too many bad experiences, and every rape is one too many. To be honest I really despise this mobbing attitude that seems to surface here. Somebody has been wronged, so now people on the internet have to be hated that have no connection to the event whatsoever. Just because I didn't join the chorus of "it's all the fault of sexism"? Edit: also, with respect to the 1 in 4 number, have studies about what men experience even been conducted? Since most of those rapes occur for young people, a lot of men could be affected, too (raped as kids). Also men appear to be much more likely to become victim of violence than women, from what I have found so far.
      - throwaway54-762 14y ago
        "Could have" is reaching out into the hypotheticals… as other commenters have said, "let's focus on what has happened." I'm not trying to mob on you, but this branch of hypothetical thinking is always brought up in response to this kind of story, usually by men. It is problematic because it distracts attention from the main issue: systematic harassment of women in our community. Bringing up this hypothetical is a distraction/derailment tactic used by what I will call 'agents of the patriarchy,' un-wittingly or no. So when you say it, just understand why feminists get annoyed…
        Tichy 14y ago
        I'm sorry, but it was actually you who brought up the "derailment tactic": you asked specifically if it seems conceivable that a significant number of men are being harassed. And earlier the question was "would such a scenario be imaginable for a man" and your answer was "but 1 in 4 women are being raped". I assume you are not aware of it, but it seems very twisted to ask for some aspect and then condemn the mentioning of said aspect. Also how is the story here relevant to systemic harassment of women by "our" community - how common is it that a women in the community gets flooded with fake nude photographs, and how is that the communities doing (except for providing an online forum)? With respect to the 1 in 4 figure, surely you are aware that most rapes occur in relationships (relatives, spouses, acquaintances)? Also I only researched that figure of violence against men yesterday, but for Germany. In the German police crime statistics severe violence against men is much more frequent than severe violence and rape against women. So there is at least one data point.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
steveklabnik 14y ago
> How do you know the motivation of this person? It's irrelevant. If you do sexist things, you are a sexist. Maybe you don't know you're a sexist, but you are.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  No, the act is sexist. Your intent surely matters in how you're pigeonholed, no?
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    Intent is not magic. The hurt caused is not just mended because you didn't mean it. Maybe this is a better way of putting it: Person A and Person B exist. One of the two means to be sexist, and one does not. They both go around and do the exact same things. What is the difference between A and B, as far as women or our community are concerned? There effectively isn't any. Now, maybe Person not-sexist is more likely to come to understand how their actions are harming people, and be reformed, but before that point, their intent doesn't mean a damn: they're still hurting others.
    - Torgo 14y ago
      It's strategic. It's because we're trying to correct behavior, not just punish offenders. We live in a society together and you can't just push these people out and marginalize them and expect benefits. This has been discussed to death, and the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive. Which do you think helps remove the behavior in our society: "that sounded racist, is that really what you meant?" or "you're a racist. I can't believe you said that." One of them gives the person an opportunity to evaluate what they said and how they want to be perceived by others, the other immediately puts them on the defensive and marks you and your cause an enemy to their person.
      - steveklabnik 14y ago
        It'd be tactical, not strategic. ;) > the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive. Right! Which is why I care what someone does, not what they say or what they mean. Address the behavior. I'm glad we agree on this.
lizzard 14y ago
We can call it misogyny, or using misogynist tools and strategies -- the motivation of whoever did this doesn't make that any less true.

by detst 14y ago

nollidge 14y ago

Do you legitimately think we could remove gender from the situation and it would've played out in the same way?

Tichy 14y ago
Cases of men being stalked do exist.
- wiredfool 14y ago
  So do zebras. But in this case, if you hear hooves behind you, bet on the horse, not the zebra.
- throwaway54-762 14y ago
  Exists != happens systematically. Something like fully 1/3-1/4 of women are harassed or raped during the course of their life. ONE IN FOUR. Can you imagine, one out of every four men you know in tech being stalked, harassed, or abused? While men being stalked is terrible, it simply isn't on the same scale as the stalking of women.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    The question was if a similar scenario could have played out for a man. I don't know what your answer has to do with anything. I am as sorry for women who have been raped as the next guy. Wish I could help prevent such things happening. I actually started researching that a bit. I grant that I am not yet convinced of the 1 in 4 statistics (see http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html for example), but in any case women do have too many bad experiences, and every rape is one too many. To be honest I really despise this mobbing attitude that seems to surface here. Somebody has been wronged, so now people on the internet have to be hated that have no connection to the event whatsoever. Just because I didn't join the chorus of "it's all the fault of sexism"? Edit: also, with respect to the 1 in 4 number, have studies about what men experience even been conducted? Since most of those rapes occur for young people, a lot of men could be affected, too (raped as kids). Also men appear to be much more likely to become victim of violence than women, from what I have found so far.
    - throwaway54-762 14y ago
      "Could have" is reaching out into the hypotheticals… as other commenters have said, "let's focus on what has happened." I'm not trying to mob on you, but this branch of hypothetical thinking is always brought up in response to this kind of story, usually by men. It is problematic because it distracts attention from the main issue: systematic harassment of women in our community. Bringing up this hypothetical is a distraction/derailment tactic used by what I will call 'agents of the patriarchy,' un-wittingly or no. So when you say it, just understand why feminists get annoyed…
      - Tichy 14y ago
        I'm sorry, but it was actually you who brought up the "derailment tactic": you asked specifically if it seems conceivable that a significant number of men are being harassed. And earlier the question was "would such a scenario be imaginable for a man" and your answer was "but 1 in 4 women are being raped". I assume you are not aware of it, but it seems very twisted to ask for some aspect and then condemn the mentioning of said aspect. Also how is the story here relevant to systemic harassment of women by "our" community - how common is it that a women in the community gets flooded with fake nude photographs, and how is that the communities doing (except for providing an online forum)? With respect to the 1 in 4 figure, surely you are aware that most rapes occur in relationships (relatives, spouses, acquaintances)? Also I only researched that figure of violence against men yesterday, but for Germany. In the German police crime statistics severe violence against men is much more frequent than severe violence and rape against women. So there is at least one data point.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

steveklabnik 14y ago

> How do you know the motivation of this person? It's irrelevant. If you do sexist things, you are a sexist. Maybe you don't know you're a sexist, but you are.

JoeAltmaier 14y ago
No, the act is sexist. Your intent surely matters in how you're pigeonholed, no?
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  Intent is not magic. The hurt caused is not just mended because you didn't mean it. Maybe this is a better way of putting it: Person A and Person B exist. One of the two means to be sexist, and one does not. They both go around and do the exact same things. What is the difference between A and B, as far as women or our community are concerned? There effectively isn't any. Now, maybe Person not-sexist is more likely to come to understand how their actions are harming people, and be reformed, but before that point, their intent doesn't mean a damn: they're still hurting others.
  - Torgo 14y ago
    It's strategic. It's because we're trying to correct behavior, not just punish offenders. We live in a society together and you can't just push these people out and marginalize them and expect benefits. This has been discussed to death, and the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive. Which do you think helps remove the behavior in our society: "that sounded racist, is that really what you meant?" or "you're a racist. I can't believe you said that." One of them gives the person an opportunity to evaluate what they said and how they want to be perceived by others, the other immediately puts them on the defensive and marks you and your cause an enemy to their person.
    - steveklabnik 14y ago
      It'd be tactical, not strategic. ;) > the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive. Right! Which is why I care what someone does, not what they say or what they mean. Address the behavior. I'm glad we agree on this.

lizzard 14y ago

We can call it misogyny, or using misogynist tools and strategies -- the motivation of whoever did this doesn't make that any less true.