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It adversely affects screen readers, so on the outset it is an issue. But the post is about the qualitative nature of the problem. I suppose this manifested a

It adversely affects screen readers, so on the outset it is an issue. But the post is about the qualitative nature of the problem. I suppose this manifested as a quantitative problem with the time-to-complete task increasing. I agree it would be nice to see an actual user study comparing task completion time. I'd imagine there's already something in SIGCHI on the efficacy of disappearing prompts.

ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
It does affect screen readers, but that's a progressive enhancement issue. You shouldn't be degrading the experience for someone who does not need one.
- steveax 14y ago
  Supporting screen reader users is not "progressive enhancement", rather, it is basic and essential.
  - ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
    "Progressive enhancement is a strategy for web design that emphasizes accessibility, semantic HTML markup, and external stylesheet and scripting technologies. Progressive enhancement uses web technologies in a layered fashion that allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality of a web page, using any browser or Internet connection, while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement @steveax, you're misunderstanding the concept. The idea is that users with screen readers will see labels, but those who don't can omit them. Progressive enhancement means building for screen readers first, for example, and progressively enhancing the experience for those who can support it. You forgot to include this part, bro. "... while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth.""
    - steveax 14y ago
      The key phrase there being: "allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality". By not using labels you are excluding screen reader users.
    - steveax 14y ago
      The technique in question here is omitting labels and relying upon the placeholder attribute only. If you're suggesting that a JavaScript technique could hide the labels for non-screen reader users, how exactly do you intend to determine that? (hint: it's not possible)
      - ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
        window.navigator, but this example works with chrome. http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/ http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/
        steveax 14y ago
        window.navigator is useless as screen readers run on top of the browser. If you know that little about screen readers you probably shouldn't be opining on a11y issues.
        ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
        Screen reader will still read the label element because it's in the dom, right? It was about whether having labels lead to more user errors, not about omitting then from the DOM? If that's true, then yeah, that's a terrible idea. You should never omit it from the DOM. I like to use icons to substitute for label text and just pack all the information I can into the legend. Text as a label is what I'm debating.
        stan_rogers 14y ago
        Your image failed to load (for whatever reason; don't count on a refresh to fix it--the failure may have generated a 404 that's neatly cached by my ISP). My browser doesn't display ALT text for dimensioned images (or the ALT text won't fit in the image placeholder area). I don't use a screen reader, and I'm not an HTML-savvy user. Now what? Accessibility first — it affects a lot more tan disabled users. Usability second. Pretty if you have time, and only insofar as it doesn't interfere with the first two.

ulisesrmzroche 14y ago

It does affect screen readers, but that's a progressive enhancement issue. You shouldn't be degrading the experience for someone who does not need one.

steveax 14y ago
Supporting screen reader users is not "progressive enhancement", rather, it is basic and essential.
- ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
  "Progressive enhancement is a strategy for web design that emphasizes accessibility, semantic HTML markup, and external stylesheet and scripting technologies. Progressive enhancement uses web technologies in a layered fashion that allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality of a web page, using any browser or Internet connection, while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement @steveax, you're misunderstanding the concept. The idea is that users with screen readers will see labels, but those who don't can omit them. Progressive enhancement means building for screen readers first, for example, and progressively enhancing the experience for those who can support it. You forgot to include this part, bro. "... while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth.""
  - steveax 14y ago
    The key phrase there being: "allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality". By not using labels you are excluding screen reader users.
  - steveax 14y ago
    The technique in question here is omitting labels and relying upon the placeholder attribute only. If you're suggesting that a JavaScript technique could hide the labels for non-screen reader users, how exactly do you intend to determine that? (hint: it's not possible)
    - ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
      window.navigator, but this example works with chrome. http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/ http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/
      - steveax 14y ago
        window.navigator is useless as screen readers run on top of the browser. If you know that little about screen readers you probably shouldn't be opining on a11y issues.
        ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
        Screen reader will still read the label element because it's in the dom, right? It was about whether having labels lead to more user errors, not about omitting then from the DOM? If that's true, then yeah, that's a terrible idea. You should never omit it from the DOM. I like to use icons to substitute for label text and just pack all the information I can into the legend. Text as a label is what I'm debating.
        stan_rogers 14y ago
        Your image failed to load (for whatever reason; don't count on a refresh to fix it--the failure may have generated a 404 that's neatly cached by my ISP). My browser doesn't display ALT text for dimensioned images (or the ALT text won't fit in the image placeholder area). I don't use a screen reader, and I'm not an HTML-savvy user. Now what? Accessibility first — it affects a lot more tan disabled users. Usability second. Pretty if you have time, and only insofar as it doesn't interfere with the first two.