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This claim is useless without any data backing it up. Where's the proof that this is even an issue? If you're targeting screen-readers, then that's a progressiv

This claim is useless without any data backing it up. Where's the proof that this is even an issue? If you're targeting screen-readers, then that's a progressive enhancement issue. If you just want to guide the user, then work on giving the user more information sooner. edit: I'm not saying you should use placeholders as replacements for labels, this will probably invalidate your HTML.(guess). I'm saying this is not a very good point until it's proven to actually get in the way of the user experience. I don't think we should treat our users like idiots, because they're not, so any time that gets included in a design decision, (the assumption that our users are dumb), I already know it's a bad one. Plus, if you have too many fields in your form, that you need to start adding labels for clarity, you should probably split that up and multi-page it.

nirvdrum 14y ago
It adversely affects screen readers, so on the outset it is an issue. But the post is about the qualitative nature of the problem. I suppose this manifested as a quantitative problem with the time-to-complete task increasing. I agree it would be nice to see an actual user study comparing task completion time. I'd imagine there's already something in SIGCHI on the efficacy of disappearing prompts.
- ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
  It does affect screen readers, but that's a progressive enhancement issue. You shouldn't be degrading the experience for someone who does not need one.
  - steveax 14y ago
    Supporting screen reader users is not "progressive enhancement", rather, it is basic and essential.
    - ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
      "Progressive enhancement is a strategy for web design that emphasizes accessibility, semantic HTML markup, and external stylesheet and scripting technologies. Progressive enhancement uses web technologies in a layered fashion that allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality of a web page, using any browser or Internet connection, while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement @steveax, you're misunderstanding the concept. The idea is that users with screen readers will see labels, but those who don't can omit them. Progressive enhancement means building for screen readers first, for example, and progressively enhancing the experience for those who can support it. You forgot to include this part, bro. "... while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth.""
      - steveax 14y ago
        The key phrase there being: "allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality". By not using labels you are excluding screen reader users.
      - steveax 14y ago
        The technique in question here is omitting labels and relying upon the placeholder attribute only. If you're suggesting that a JavaScript technique could hide the labels for non-screen reader users, how exactly do you intend to determine that? (hint: it's not possible)
        ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
        window.navigator, but this example works with chrome. http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/ http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/
        steveax 14y ago
        window.navigator is useless as screen readers run on top of the browser. If you know that little about screen readers you probably shouldn't be opining on a11y issues.
MartinCron 14y ago
This claim is useless without any data backing it up. It should be OK for a person to express an opinion or preference without being immediately dismissed as being useless because there's no data backing it up.
- ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
  You can't dismiss my opinion because your feathers got ruffled either. I still think this is more looking at notable examples rather than the typical example.
talmand 14y ago
I fail to see the claim, well, maybe the title. The article comes across as an opinion to me. You can have your own opinion as well, but I'm not as quick to label your opinion useless as you are to label her's. I didn't track and keep statistics on the matter, but I have encountered the very thing that author describes. Inputs that used placeholder tended to have more errors than ones that did not. Take the statement for what you want but in my experience I would avoid such things in my future projects. Using placeholders as labels will not invalidate the HTML, it is a valid thing to do. This is not a debate over the validity of doing such a thing, but whether it's a good idea. It's not saying that your users are idiots, but sometimes you do have to design/develop for the lowest denominator in the group. But then you always have a level of "can't make everyone happy". Most cases of UX I've seen suggests that reducing the number of pages in submitting form data increases submission by reducing fatigue, confusion, and frustration. Think disappearing labels might be an issue for someone then find out what happens when the visitor can't remember something they filled in the page before; or worse, three pages ago. If there are too many fields on the page then you're better off trying to reduce the number of fields involved. Maybe get the bare minimum now and ask for more later after the form has been submitted.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

nirvdrum 14y ago

It adversely affects screen readers, so on the outset it is an issue. But the post is about the qualitative nature of the problem. I suppose this manifested as a quantitative problem with the time-to-complete task increasing. I agree it would be nice to see an actual user study comparing task completion time. I'd imagine there's already something in SIGCHI on the efficacy of disappearing prompts.

ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
It does affect screen readers, but that's a progressive enhancement issue. You shouldn't be degrading the experience for someone who does not need one.
- steveax 14y ago
  Supporting screen reader users is not "progressive enhancement", rather, it is basic and essential.
  - ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
    "Progressive enhancement is a strategy for web design that emphasizes accessibility, semantic HTML markup, and external stylesheet and scripting technologies. Progressive enhancement uses web technologies in a layered fashion that allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality of a web page, using any browser or Internet connection, while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement @steveax, you're misunderstanding the concept. The idea is that users with screen readers will see labels, but those who don't can omit them. Progressive enhancement means building for screen readers first, for example, and progressively enhancing the experience for those who can support it. You forgot to include this part, bro. "... while also providing an enhanced version of the page to those with more advanced browser software or greater bandwidth.""
    - steveax 14y ago
      The key phrase there being: "allows everyone to access the basic content and functionality". By not using labels you are excluding screen reader users.
    - steveax 14y ago
      The technique in question here is omitting labels and relying upon the placeholder attribute only. If you're suggesting that a JavaScript technique could hide the labels for non-screen reader users, how exactly do you intend to determine that? (hint: it's not possible)
      - ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
        window.navigator, but this example works with chrome. http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/ http://jsfiddle.net/LQ8Af/1/
        steveax 14y ago
        window.navigator is useless as screen readers run on top of the browser. If you know that little about screen readers you probably shouldn't be opining on a11y issues.

MartinCron 14y ago

This claim is useless without any data backing it up. It should be OK for a person to express an opinion or preference without being immediately dismissed as being useless because there's no data backing it up.

ulisesrmzroche 14y ago
You can't dismiss my opinion because your feathers got ruffled either. I still think this is more looking at notable examples rather than the typical example.

talmand 14y ago

I fail to see the claim, well, maybe the title. The article comes across as an opinion to me. You can have your own opinion as well, but I'm not as quick to label your opinion useless as you are to label her's. I didn't track and keep statistics on the matter, but I have encountered the very thing that author describes. Inputs that used placeholder tended to have more errors than ones that did not. Take the statement for what you want but in my experience I would avoid such things in my future projects. Using placeholders as labels will not invalidate the HTML, it is a valid thing to do. This is not a debate over the validity of doing such a thing, but whether it's a good idea. It's not saying that your users are idiots, but sometimes you do have to design/develop for the lowest denominator in the group. But then you always have a level of "can't make everyone happy". Most cases of UX I've seen suggests that reducing the number of pages in submitting form data increases submission by reducing fatigue, confusion, and frustration. Think disappearing labels might be an issue for someone then find out what happens when the visitor can't remember something they filled in the page before; or worse, three pages ago. If there are too many fields on the page then you're better off trying to reduce the number of fields involved. Maybe get the bare minimum now and ask for more later after the form has been submitted.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]