13 ms·

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had

• h2s 14y ago
  Not to mention the conspiracy theorist positing that it might have been a woman posting the fake porn pictures. The mental gymnastics some people will perform to avoid facing the obvious truth are amazing. How can we solve a problem we don't all admit exists?
  • deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    • bruceboughton 14y ago
      Hypothetical is hypothetical. Why not deal with the real instance at hand?
      • deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        • lelandbatey 14y ago
          Likewise, your hypothetical holds no interest, and doesn't have the benefit of having actually happened.
          • deleted 14y ago
            [deleted]
        • deleted 14y ago
          [deleted]
      • hopeless_case 14y ago
        You don't know that the person harassing her is a man, so why assume it is?
  • konstruktor 14y ago
    Why worry about the meaning of the terms you use when there is an opportunity to call somebody who disagrees with you names?
    • h2s 14y ago
      Well done you. It's about time somebody stood up for men brave enough to pitch improbable edge-case possibilities in order to anonymously undermine a woman reporting her experience of sexual harassment.
      • konstruktor 14y ago
        If you actually read TFA, you will notice that Sarah Parmenter is consistently using gender neutral pronouns to refer to the person(s) who put online those pictures and male pronouns for the guys wrote her inappropriate messages. That is very conscious use of language. Put that in contrast to the person who is calling somebody who is stating that the perpetrator might have been one (sic) female a ""conspiracy theorist"" and talks about "obvious truth".
        • hopeless_case 14y ago
          >Put that in contrast to the person who is calling somebody who is stating that the perpetrator might have been one (sic) female a ""conspiracy theorist"" and talks about "obvious truth". all the while supposing that there is a consipracy among men to make women feel uncomfortable at tech conferences. If irony had mass, this thread would undergo gravitational collapse and form a singularity.
  • nollidge 14y ago
    Also, it super doesn't matter what the gender of the person posting the pictures was. The gender of the actors does not matter if the gender of the victim obviously does.
  • hopeless_case 14y ago
    > Not to mention the conspiracy theorist positing that it might have been a woman posting the fake porn pictures. Why is that possibility not worth considering?
  • deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    • davedx 14y ago
      She didn't know who it was, did she? I thought that's what it said in TFA.
• pekk 14y ago
  Even if it were true that the bully didn't care about the sex of the victim per se, and only attacked her because of her popularity, the nature of what was done is still sexist. If I were to bash a competitor in public by reference to his homosexuality, it won't make anything better to know that I actually don't have any problem with gay people myself. It's unacceptable and downright evil.
• danso 14y ago
  > This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the alleged misuse of labels related to racism or sexism, as if this could somehow be worse that the discrimination the disenfranchised experience on a day-to-day basis. This is one of the most persistent problems when discussing these issues: the idea that if the victim of discrimination didn't get raped or beaten by people wearing white hoods, then it does not qualify as real discrimination.
• hagios 14y ago
  There is a LOT of blatant sexism in the tech sector. The more specialized you get, the worse things get. It's a pretty well documented problem (e.g. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... for a collection of security related anecdotes). This kind of culture turns away lots of tremendously talented people, and those who choose to endure a culture which seems to be slanted against them generally either end up targets or else silent lurkers. It's absolutely accurate to call the general reaction 'denial.' People who complain who are on the receiving end of the harassment are 'overly sensitive' and those who aren't who speak up against the status quo are 'apologists' and 'white knights.' It's difficult to address a mindset which a majority of a community is complicit in at best, or active defenders of at worst.
  • protomyth 14y ago
    "It's a pretty well documented problem (e.g. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm.. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm.... for a collection of security related anecdotes" At this point, I'd say it was the opposite of well documented and that's a problem. We do not have the statistics on this since it is not being reported to law enforcement or another body that collects these statistics. Does tech have more incidents than lawyers, plumbers, or actors? Don't know and I wish I did. I believe that it is a problem, but I cannot point to finding or study.
    • belorn 14y ago
      Thank god, someone that gets it. We are technologist. Many of us are academics. If someone writes or talks about how a compiler is slow, the community will demand more than anecdotes. We expect numbers, tested theories, and verified results. When people come to us with anecdotes, we often use "less than nice" ways to disregard what they say. hmm, I see parallels... There looks to be a number of excellent evidence to prove that there is a gender equality issue in IT, but there is no scientific research on what the causes are. Is it the general culture in the world and IT has the same level as other industries? Is it because of the question/answer culture of engineers, which is an aspect currently being researched in regard to gender equality. Is it a lack of respect for women in the IT field? I can think of plentiful number of ways to test those concept, work that anthropology might want to do if we asked them. We could also pay them to do it. Maybe that could be someones kickstarter project? I have a strong conviction that if someone would bring scientific data on the issue on what the causes are and how to fix them, in a verifiable way, few would object. Can a strong worded policy document have an statistic proven effect in discourage sexism in a conference? If you think so, verify it with data. Get 10 conference to do it, and collect data from it and 10 other without any such document. If its verifyable, every conference should adapt one after that. Do you think negative IRC comments is the problem? Switch a number of projects to a moderated communication channel and test the concept. Compare a unmoderated IRC with a project page like stackoverflow. Bring data, do some science, show it to the community. Its the exact same thing we expect from anyone else when they want to do changes to the things the community care about.
• detst 14y ago
  How do you know the motivation of this person? Every time one of these stories come up, someone tries to call other people out for rationalizing. It's not rationalizing, it's calling it as they see it: someone being an asshole. If you want blatant sexism, FTA: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys". That's sexism. It's not denial if you don't know the motivation. Why is it so important to label these actions a certain way when we can just call it as it clearly is? Trying to label everything that may or may not be sexism doesn't help the cause. Most of us know there is rampant sexism. Arguing about this just detracts from the real problem. There are more than enough obvious instances to demonstrate the problem. EDIT: for the 2 down-voters so far: the point I'm making is that sexism is a major problem but trying to ascribe motivation to something with uncertainty is intellectual dishonesty that does nothing but detract from the real problem.
  • nollidge 14y ago
    Do you legitimately think we could remove gender from the situation and it would've played out in the same way?
    • Tichy 14y ago
      Cases of men being stalked do exist.
      • wiredfool 14y ago
        So do zebras. But in this case, if you hear hooves behind you, bet on the horse, not the zebra.
      • throwaway54-762 14y ago
        Exists != happens systematically. Something like fully 1/3-1/4 of women are harassed or raped during the course of their life. ONE IN FOUR. Can you imagine, one out of every four men you know in tech being stalked, harassed, or abused? While men being stalked is terrible, it simply isn't on the same scale as the stalking of women.
• zamryok 14y ago
  Furthermore, it seems clear that the way she was attacked was specifically designed to exploit at least the following : - the fact that she is a woman adressing a predominantly male audience (the fake porno) - the ambient objectification of women in society How can that not count as sexist?
  • Tichy 14y ago
    Excuse my ignorance, just wondering: is it established that porn is sexist? Are they demeaning to the male actors in porn, too? Or is the underlying value that it is demeaning for a woman to have sex? It seems to me a universal judgement isn't easy to come by?
    • EliRivers 14y ago
      "is it established that porn is sexist?" It is, yes. The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of porn panders to a specifically, typically male fantasy (and bravado) of sexual interaction.
      • Tichy 14y ago
        That seems to imply that male fantasies would be predominantly about humiliating women?
        • EliRivers 14y ago
          No, it does not. The following makes no claims about male fantasy or porn; it is merely a means of explaining that you have made an incorrect inference. Imagine if you will that, hypothetically, 10% of male fantasy is about humiliating women. Imagine also, hypothetically, that all porn is based on that 10%. In this way, you can see that it is possible for all porn to be about humiliating women, but that does not imply that the majority of male fantasy is about that. Put another way, if all cows are black, it does not mean that everything black is a cow. If all porn is based on a male fantasy, it does not mean that all male fantasy is represented in porn.
• Tichy 14y ago
  To be honest I don't understand what this has to do with sexism. I would think this is actually a crime (stalking?) committed by some deranged individual, whose real motivations we don't know anything about. Even if they were "hatred of women" or whatever, I fail to see what the lesson to be learned from that should be? Is the implied assumption that the deed was encouraged by rampant sexism in the industry? In the last story I read about stalking the stalkers were people who had personal relations to the victim. No idea if this is common for stalking (as for rape), but I wouldn't be surprised. I don't mean it to defend anything (what?), just trying to understand the "xyz is sexism" mindset?
  • mwetzler 14y ago
    Sexism definition: Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. This was clearly sexism since it was demeaning to the woman and her gender was used as a part of that (e.g. the fact that pictures of naked women were used in the attack). If the same happened to a man, we would probably call it harassment, not sexism, since men at large are not discriminated against based on their gender. A female posting pictures of a man at the conference wouldn't be signaling that men don't belong in the group, since the group is dominated by men to begin with. Either gender can be stalked, but there are FAR more female victims, a symptom of sexism at large in society. FAR more women are harassed as well. 1 in 5 college women are raped during their college years. To take some of your words, the deed was encouraged by and reflective of rampant sexism in society at large. I don't think I've done a good job explaining this, but hopefully provoked some thoughts on it at least.
    • Tichy 14y ago
      "since men at large are not discriminated against based on their gender." Uh, hello there - that's a huge assumption. I think they are discriminated against very much, but I guess no point to discuss on HN :-/ I'll only say that I don't enjoy having to spend time away from my kid. "A female posting pictures of a man at the conference wouldn't be signaling that men don't belong in the group" Very confusing? I thought the problem was that the pictures where fake nudes? In any case I think in general a swath of postings of somebodies picture would be disturbing. Also I don't understand "it's sexism because in the pictures she is a woman"? "1 in 5 college women are raped during their college years." This has been debunked, I only googled for that yesterday: http://www.responsibleopposing.com/comment/1in4.html http://www.responsibleopposing.com/comment/1in4.html (originally I had a better link but this was the next best I found yesterday - the stats actually seem to go back to some manipulated study in 1985). (Edit: this link from the article is probably the better debunking, but longer http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html ) "the deed was encouraged by and reflective of rampant sexism in society at large." They don't even know who did it, so how can they know what inspired it?
• moe 14y ago
  Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up Excuse me, have you even read the article? Someone uploaded fake porn pictures of her to a forum and then persistently sent the URL to her employers and acquaintances. This was a targeted attack on her reputation, or perhaps malicious stalking, but how on earth does sexism factor into this? The porn pictures were merely a vehicle. If the attack had been carried out against a man they would probably have used accusations of child pornography or such.
  • ender7 14y ago
    The parent's point is that she is a target because she is a woman, and society gives such people more tools to abuse women than to abuse men. This makes it a sexist act. There are significantly more males in this industry with significantly more popularity. Yet no evidence is presented that these figures also have received this level of harassment. When the OP says that "[women in technology] are scared" it is because they feel that they are in an environment that targets them for harassment and abuse. At this point, we hear arguments like "this could have happened to a guy just as easily" but the fact is that it doesn't. In a world where such events happen with equal frequency across genders then yes, this might be a silly discussion, but we do not live in such a world. Engineers tend to find it disconcerting that an action's goodness or badness depends on its context. After all, shouldn't we be able to tell just by looking at the inherent properties of the action? What if we can't read the context correctly? Well, the answer is that we frequently do, and the result is these inane argument over whether posting fake porn pictures of a woman is a sexist act. The fact of the matter is that women in tech are targeted because they are women. They are overwhelmingly more frequently attacked than their male counterparts, and if you think this is silly, then I suggest you go make friends with some women in tech. This attack is another outgrowth of that pervasive sexism, and the fact that it uses a medium that is traditionally associated with denigrating women [1] just makes it even more sexist. [1] Yes, there is some non-misogynistic porn out there, but it is the exception rather than the rule.
    • moe 14y ago
      How do we know she was targeted because she's a woman? This whole jumping to conclusions is just a bit much for me. Couldn't she just as well be targeted because she rejected some nerd who had a crush on her? Or even by another woman who is jealous of her? That obviously doesn't make the actions any better, but seems a more plausible motivation to me than "a random guy running a smear-campaign against a random woman, only because she's a woman".
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]