5 ms·

And this is why you need moderated communities, because otherwise the assholes will dominate the discourse in your chosen milieu and drive out anyone they deem

by pja 14y ago

And this is why you need moderated communities, because otherwise the assholes will dominate the discourse in your chosen milieu and drive out anyone they deem unacceptable. Very often it's women. I don't know why but either there's a class of developers who feel personally threatened by women in their chosen profession, or it's personal: some individual has believed themselves to be entitled to that woman's attention & when it was not forthcoming begin a cruel campaign of punishment to make up for the perceived insult. Maybe even both? It's been said that sunlight is the best disinfectant: I know that I'd be completely unaware of this behaviour if some of the women involved weren't brave enough to speak out about it. I don't have any good solutions though: the best I can do is to refuse to tolerate any sexism in my own circles, on the grounds that the people who do this kind of thing take other people's silence (not wanting to be "that guy") as implicit affirmation of their actions.

thaumaturgy 14y ago
Regarding your second paragraph, I think it's primarily a clash of two situations: software development by its nature attracts men who are socially awkward, and the women that are attracted to software development tend not to be there for the attention. Software development has a broader appeal now than it did twenty years ago, and in spite of the numerous cases like this one, there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. (I hope that continues, we need all the talent available.) So, hopefully this will sort itself out in time. In the meantime, I'm more intrigued by the idea of gated communities than I am of moderated communities. Moderation seems to require a lot of resources and lead to conflict. Gated (online) communities don't seem to have been tried as much, and I'm curious about whether or not a lot of social problems would simply solve themselves if not everyone were invited to participate.
- pja 14y ago
  I doubt women are generally in professional jobs "for the attention" & I don't think this kind of behaviour is limited to men who are socially awkward unfortunately. Gated communities still need moderation: someone has to decide whether or not to kick people out if they behave badly!
  - umbrella 14y ago
    Everything women do, revolves around the acquisition of attention. The sooner you learn this, the better... young Horatio.
- NoahSussman 14y ago
  > there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. Just keep in mind that, whatever growth you've observed, the number of women in programming now is much lower than it was in the 1980s. For some historical statistics see http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-26/opinions/35268904_1_computer-science-young-women-grace-hopper http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-26/opinions/35268...
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    The percentage of women is lower, but the total number is higher.
    - sophacles 14y ago
      So what? Percentage is the statistic that matters in discussions like this. Unless you are suggesting that there is some upper limit on the number of women that can ever be involved in programming at one time. How does notion work to you - is there some sort of cosmic female hive-mind that determines the quotas of them that can be part of any given activity? Is it some sort of feedback loop so that we as a species are approaching the limit of $MAX_FEMALE_DEVS?
      - pjscott 14y ago
        I think you've mistaken a factual nitpick for a bigger argument.
  - revelation 14y ago
    Society was very different in 1980. Maybe we should be very careful to reach these conclusions.
- overgryphon 14y ago
  The software development community attracts socially awkward people by accepting them- and consequently accepting behaviors that are not seen as acceptable in most parts of society. For example, most of the software development community would see a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested as innocent, awkward, and empathize with the guy's rejection (or lack there of, since he probably doesn't have the courage to directly ask her out). They wouldn't consider how it feels to the girl have someone watching you, following you, looking up private information online, and invading her space.
  - Firehed 14y ago
    I imagine most developers can tell the difference between 'pursuing' and 'stalking'.
  - thaumaturgy 14y ago
    I don't think "we" as a community can or should outright reject people who behave badly. We can only reject (or try to change) their behavior. Let's not forget that 8+ hours a day in front of a little glowing box nearly requires a specific personality type. If people who are bad at dealing with other people are blocked from software development, the field would suffer (a lot). > ...a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested... To be fair, you came >this< close to describing the plot of the average romcom here. The only difference between "sweet" and "creepy" is in judging whether or not the person is interested, or might become interested. A lot of nerds (I use the term with love here) aren't even good at mingling at social events, let alone reading whether or not their advances towards someone are going to turn out well. (This isn't limited to man-woman relationships either, as a recent case shows.) ...I wonder if maybe a huge root cause of this problem is simply that there are few enough women in our field that any attention from men feels like it's too much? I have to imagine that if you got regular, "Hey, are you busy Saturday night?" inquiries from different guys, you'd start to feel a little like chum in shark-infested waters.
    - itsybitsycoder 14y ago
      Romcoms are fiction. There are loads of "romantic" movies where, if acted out IRL, the hero would be rightly arrested on felony charges. They're not meant to be taken as instructional.
- lsc 14y ago
  It has been brought to my attention that I missed a 'not' in your sentence, rendering my previous reply... nonsense. [deleted]
saraid216 14y ago
Keep in mind that sexism exists outside the tech industry as well: correlation doesn't imply causation. We certainly need to address the problems of sexism within our community, but I think it's a mistake to assume that it's part of the community's particular quirks that produce said sexism. Especially when there are some far more obvious indicators of where the sexism comes from: the larger cultural discourse and ambience, for instance.

by pja 14y ago

thaumaturgy 14y ago

Regarding your second paragraph, I think it's primarily a clash of two situations: software development by its nature attracts men who are socially awkward, and the women that are attracted to software development tend not to be there for the attention. Software development has a broader appeal now than it did twenty years ago, and in spite of the numerous cases like this one, there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. (I hope that continues, we need all the talent available.) So, hopefully this will sort itself out in time. In the meantime, I'm more intrigued by the idea of gated communities than I am of moderated communities. Moderation seems to require a lot of resources and lead to conflict. Gated (online) communities don't seem to have been tried as much, and I'm curious about whether or not a lot of social problems would simply solve themselves if not everyone were invited to participate.

pja 14y ago
I doubt women are generally in professional jobs "for the attention" & I don't think this kind of behaviour is limited to men who are socially awkward unfortunately. Gated communities still need moderation: someone has to decide whether or not to kick people out if they behave badly!
- umbrella 14y ago
  Everything women do, revolves around the acquisition of attention. The sooner you learn this, the better... young Horatio.
NoahSussman 14y ago
> there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. Just keep in mind that, whatever growth you've observed, the number of women in programming now is much lower than it was in the 1980s. For some historical statistics see http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-26/opinions/35268904_1_computer-science-young-women-grace-hopper http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-26/opinions/35268...
- roguecoder 14y ago
  The percentage of women is lower, but the total number is higher.
  - sophacles 14y ago
    So what? Percentage is the statistic that matters in discussions like this. Unless you are suggesting that there is some upper limit on the number of women that can ever be involved in programming at one time. How does notion work to you - is there some sort of cosmic female hive-mind that determines the quotas of them that can be part of any given activity? Is it some sort of feedback loop so that we as a species are approaching the limit of $MAX_FEMALE_DEVS?
    - pjscott 14y ago
      I think you've mistaken a factual nitpick for a bigger argument.
- revelation 14y ago
  Society was very different in 1980. Maybe we should be very careful to reach these conclusions.
overgryphon 14y ago
The software development community attracts socially awkward people by accepting them- and consequently accepting behaviors that are not seen as acceptable in most parts of society. For example, most of the software development community would see a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested as innocent, awkward, and empathize with the guy's rejection (or lack there of, since he probably doesn't have the courage to directly ask her out). They wouldn't consider how it feels to the girl have someone watching you, following you, looking up private information online, and invading her space.
- Firehed 14y ago
  I imagine most developers can tell the difference between 'pursuing' and 'stalking'.
- thaumaturgy 14y ago
  I don't think "we" as a community can or should outright reject people who behave badly. We can only reject (or try to change) their behavior. Let's not forget that 8+ hours a day in front of a little glowing box nearly requires a specific personality type. If people who are bad at dealing with other people are blocked from software development, the field would suffer (a lot). > ...a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested... To be fair, you came >this< close to describing the plot of the average romcom here. The only difference between "sweet" and "creepy" is in judging whether or not the person is interested, or might become interested. A lot of nerds (I use the term with love here) aren't even good at mingling at social events, let alone reading whether or not their advances towards someone are going to turn out well. (This isn't limited to man-woman relationships either, as a recent case shows.) ...I wonder if maybe a huge root cause of this problem is simply that there are few enough women in our field that any attention from men feels like it's too much? I have to imagine that if you got regular, "Hey, are you busy Saturday night?" inquiries from different guys, you'd start to feel a little like chum in shark-infested waters.
  - itsybitsycoder 14y ago
    Romcoms are fiction. There are loads of "romantic" movies where, if acted out IRL, the hero would be rightly arrested on felony charges. They're not meant to be taken as instructional.
lsc 14y ago
It has been brought to my attention that I missed a 'not' in your sentence, rendering my previous reply... nonsense. [deleted]

saraid216 14y ago

Keep in mind that sexism exists outside the tech industry as well: correlation doesn't imply causation. We certainly need to address the problems of sexism within our community, but I think it's a mistake to assume that it's part of the community's particular quirks that produce said sexism. Especially when there are some far more obvious indicators of where the sexism comes from: the larger cultural discourse and ambience, for instance.