5 ms·

Seriously. I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet but holy crap I get nervous for my girlfriend who's

Seriously. I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet but holy crap I get nervous for my girlfriend who's a talented programmer and about to graduate with a CS degree. Is this kind of bullshit in store for her? Sheesh.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
afarrell 14y ago
Are you sure you aren't confusing "white knight" for "person who doesn't appreciate seeing other people treated like shit"? I originally thought that phrase meant something like "Claiming to represent someone's position or speak for them when they can very well speak for themselves." But assuming that http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight is a credible source, that phrase actually refers to dudes who argue against misogyny because they want to get laid. I hope that isn't the sense in which you're using it because there are some gaping flaws in that concept: - Unless you're all using your real names and on the same campus or convention floor, how does that even work, logistically? - Treating people with basic levels of respect does not magically make them attracted to you, though it will make them more comfortable hanging around you. - If the only (or even the most notable) reason someone can think of for trying to argue against misogyny or other flavors of assholiery is to get laid, that person needs to go home and rethink their fundamental values in life. Implying this is true of men generally is pretty misadrist. I suspect you aren't actually using knowyourmeme's definition, so could you clarify the behavior you're referring to when you say "white-knighting"?
- brazzy 14y ago
  Since when have gaping flaws in a concept been a deterrent against people trying to implement it? Your typical Internet White Knight is most likely not explicitly aiming to get laid, but simply following the classical role model they've absorbed via Hollywood: women are weak and need to be defended, good men defend them (and get the girl in the end). It can get a bit comical but the real problem is that it takes the form of personal defense in specific cases, and is focused on women. So males getting treated like shit are unlikely to get any help or even sympathy from a White Knight, and they're unlikely to spend any effort on actual solutions to a toxic atmosphere.
- mattdeboard 14y ago
  Your original thought matches my definition.
- pekk 14y ago
  There ARE men who jump on others in a showy way for strictly imagined offenses against women. Sometimes (as in perhaps most cases of men fighting in public) the motivation IS at least partly sexual, e.g. to seem attractive, or at least part of an anachronistic image of the chivalrous savior. But the sexual part isn't defining. This doesn't mean that it is wrong to argue against misogyny. It just points to a real phenomenon among men, where they are trying to look like they are calling out an asshole when what is really going on is logically much more similar to acting holy in a bar fight over a woman. If you think observing actual idiotic behavior which occurs sometimes among men is misandrist then I am happy to be a "misandrist" in your perception. I think the condition of men in our society can withstand a small amount of anthropological observation.
  - knowtheory 14y ago
    Really? Are there? Show me some examples. What indications do you have that defending a woman is a sexually motivated act?
    - mnicole 14y ago
      I have only seen it happen once or twice in-person, but I've run across it multiple times online. Had one guy, known for being awkwardly friendly (as in, had a motive) with the women in the group, even try to invite himself to stay with me multiple times while he would "be in town" and even when others would say "Dude, please stop," he would retort with "Once she meets me, she can decide!" Wouldn't let up on it, even after personally shooting him down. Found out later he was doing this same thing with other girls, too, and was kicked out of the group. Can I get a clarification on the downvote, given that the parent asked for examples and I provided one? I've elaborated on the specific situation.
      - ordinary 14y ago
        I think you provided a counter-example, instead.
      - nollidge 14y ago
- jjcm 14y ago
  I think the point he's trying to make with regards to the white knighting going on, is that when a nude of Gabe Newell or Sergey Brin is made it doesn't hit the front page of HN. We respond differently when it's done to a woman.
roguecoder 14y ago
I think the difference between white-knighting and not is whether it's about the woman or the person who's behaving badly. "You shouldn't hit a girl!" <-- white knighting "You are being violent; if you do not stop we will ban you from this space." <-- insisting on basic, reasonable standards of behavior. It's not about women needing special protection, it is about the community not welcoming people who act like assholes. Of course women can defend themselves, but no one should have to defend themselves against that kind of behavior. And the only reason I believe it is important to talk about gender in this context is because women are being targeted because of their gender and using cultural weapons specific to their gender. Again, it is about the people behaving badly, not their targets.
- pekk 14y ago
  To clarify, it is white-knighting when the woman doesn't care, when there was no actual offense, and it is really just an opportunity for someone to show off about how chivalrous or sensitive they are. You don't have to be sensitive or show yourself off to shut down misogynists and you definitely don't have to go looking for unclear offenses which the purported victims have no complaint about.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    If the behavior makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't matter what the target thinks of it: I have a right to speak up. Even if the target is bothered by it I don't have a right to speak for her, though I can support her if she does speak up. All I can ever say is, "that behavior bothers me; I don't believe it is acceptable. Please stop." It doesn't matter if the offense is unclear to someone else, because it is about my boundaries, not theirs. You can disagree with my perception, but that doesn't make the behavior any more acceptable to me nor does it change how I feel about it.
    - raganwald 14y ago
      This, a thousand times this. Misogyny, homophobia, racism, even slurs against programmers on the basis of their tool chocies: These are all offensive to me, and I wish to change that for my own reasons. If a man hits his wife, I call the police. If she says, "No, it's ok, I provoked him, I deserve it," do I shrug and say, "Well that's all right then?" Attempting to intimidate me out of speaking up by labelling me a "white knight" and questioning whether my motivation is to seduce women is pretty low and vile, but what I expect from the kind of apologist scum that perpetuate these kinds of social bullying behaviours. "Reg, shut up, you're just trying to sleep with dykes" is not going to work in this or any century.
raganwald 14y ago
I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet I don't give a rat's ass what the definition of "white knighting is. I'm calling you out now to be much more specific about what kind of slighting is involved and what you're rolling your eyes at. Give examples. Justify yourself.
- mattdeboard 14y ago
  The tone/aggressiveness of your response makes it read like you're projecting a bunch of subtext you're bringing into the conversation onto me. I respect you but/so/and I'm not going to play that game.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

afarrell 14y ago

Are you sure you aren't confusing "white knight" for "person who doesn't appreciate seeing other people treated like shit"? I originally thought that phrase meant something like "Claiming to represent someone's position or speak for them when they can very well speak for themselves." But assuming that http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight is a credible source, that phrase actually refers to dudes who argue against misogyny because they want to get laid. I hope that isn't the sense in which you're using it because there are some gaping flaws in that concept: - Unless you're all using your real names and on the same campus or convention floor, how does that even work, logistically? - Treating people with basic levels of respect does not magically make them attracted to you, though it will make them more comfortable hanging around you. - If the only (or even the most notable) reason someone can think of for trying to argue against misogyny or other flavors of assholiery is to get laid, that person needs to go home and rethink their fundamental values in life. Implying this is true of men generally is pretty misadrist. I suspect you aren't actually using knowyourmeme's definition, so could you clarify the behavior you're referring to when you say "white-knighting"?

brazzy 14y ago
Since when have gaping flaws in a concept been a deterrent against people trying to implement it? Your typical Internet White Knight is most likely not explicitly aiming to get laid, but simply following the classical role model they've absorbed via Hollywood: women are weak and need to be defended, good men defend them (and get the girl in the end). It can get a bit comical but the real problem is that it takes the form of personal defense in specific cases, and is focused on women. So males getting treated like shit are unlikely to get any help or even sympathy from a White Knight, and they're unlikely to spend any effort on actual solutions to a toxic atmosphere.
mattdeboard 14y ago
Your original thought matches my definition.
pekk 14y ago
There ARE men who jump on others in a showy way for strictly imagined offenses against women. Sometimes (as in perhaps most cases of men fighting in public) the motivation IS at least partly sexual, e.g. to seem attractive, or at least part of an anachronistic image of the chivalrous savior. But the sexual part isn't defining. This doesn't mean that it is wrong to argue against misogyny. It just points to a real phenomenon among men, where they are trying to look like they are calling out an asshole when what is really going on is logically much more similar to acting holy in a bar fight over a woman. If you think observing actual idiotic behavior which occurs sometimes among men is misandrist then I am happy to be a "misandrist" in your perception. I think the condition of men in our society can withstand a small amount of anthropological observation.
- knowtheory 14y ago
  Really? Are there? Show me some examples. What indications do you have that defending a woman is a sexually motivated act?
  - mnicole 14y ago
    I have only seen it happen once or twice in-person, but I've run across it multiple times online. Had one guy, known for being awkwardly friendly (as in, had a motive) with the women in the group, even try to invite himself to stay with me multiple times while he would "be in town" and even when others would say "Dude, please stop," he would retort with "Once she meets me, she can decide!" Wouldn't let up on it, even after personally shooting him down. Found out later he was doing this same thing with other girls, too, and was kicked out of the group. Can I get a clarification on the downvote, given that the parent asked for examples and I provided one? I've elaborated on the specific situation.
    - ordinary 14y ago
      I think you provided a counter-example, instead.
    - nollidge 14y ago
jjcm 14y ago
I think the point he's trying to make with regards to the white knighting going on, is that when a nude of Gabe Newell or Sergey Brin is made it doesn't hit the front page of HN. We respond differently when it's done to a woman.

roguecoder 14y ago

I think the difference between white-knighting and not is whether it's about the woman or the person who's behaving badly. "You shouldn't hit a girl!" <-- white knighting "You are being violent; if you do not stop we will ban you from this space." <-- insisting on basic, reasonable standards of behavior. It's not about women needing special protection, it is about the community not welcoming people who act like assholes. Of course women can defend themselves, but no one should have to defend themselves against that kind of behavior. And the only reason I believe it is important to talk about gender in this context is because women are being targeted because of their gender and using cultural weapons specific to their gender. Again, it is about the people behaving badly, not their targets.

pekk 14y ago
To clarify, it is white-knighting when the woman doesn't care, when there was no actual offense, and it is really just an opportunity for someone to show off about how chivalrous or sensitive they are. You don't have to be sensitive or show yourself off to shut down misogynists and you definitely don't have to go looking for unclear offenses which the purported victims have no complaint about.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  If the behavior makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't matter what the target thinks of it: I have a right to speak up. Even if the target is bothered by it I don't have a right to speak for her, though I can support her if she does speak up. All I can ever say is, "that behavior bothers me; I don't believe it is acceptable. Please stop." It doesn't matter if the offense is unclear to someone else, because it is about my boundaries, not theirs. You can disagree with my perception, but that doesn't make the behavior any more acceptable to me nor does it change how I feel about it.
  - raganwald 14y ago
    This, a thousand times this. Misogyny, homophobia, racism, even slurs against programmers on the basis of their tool chocies: These are all offensive to me, and I wish to change that for my own reasons. If a man hits his wife, I call the police. If she says, "No, it's ok, I provoked him, I deserve it," do I shrug and say, "Well that's all right then?" Attempting to intimidate me out of speaking up by labelling me a "white knight" and questioning whether my motivation is to seduce women is pretty low and vile, but what I expect from the kind of apologist scum that perpetuate these kinds of social bullying behaviours. "Reg, shut up, you're just trying to sleep with dykes" is not going to work in this or any century.

raganwald 14y ago

I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet I don't give a rat's ass what the definition of "white knighting is. I'm calling you out now to be much more specific about what kind of slighting is involved and what you're rolling your eyes at. Give examples. Justify yourself.

mattdeboard 14y ago
The tone/aggressiveness of your response makes it read like you're projecting a bunch of subtext you're bringing into the conversation onto me. I respect you but/so/and I'm not going to play that game.