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Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (deve

by h2s 14y ago

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

tudorw 14y ago
I agree, all the stuff I read it's like going back a century, we are supposed to be on the vanguard of a brave new world, not re-hashing the same dumb ass attitude that has contaminated the past decades. Grow up, get on and be nice.
- nollidge 14y ago
  See, but the fact that you're reading about it at all, that people are arguing about it at all, means we're doing better. The fact that outrage about sexism even exists is progress. It's the (slight) progress of shining a harsh light on the previously unnoticed realities that were always there.
  - lizzard 14y ago
    Maybe, but I'm in my 40s and have been reading and arguing about it as well as experiencing it for my whole life.
mattdeboard 14y ago
Seriously. I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet but holy crap I get nervous for my girlfriend who's a talented programmer and about to graduate with a CS degree. Is this kind of bullshit in store for her? Sheesh.
- deleted 14y ago
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- afarrell 14y ago
  Are you sure you aren't confusing "white knight" for "person who doesn't appreciate seeing other people treated like shit"? I originally thought that phrase meant something like "Claiming to represent someone's position or speak for them when they can very well speak for themselves." But assuming that http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight is a credible source, that phrase actually refers to dudes who argue against misogyny because they want to get laid. I hope that isn't the sense in which you're using it because there are some gaping flaws in that concept: - Unless you're all using your real names and on the same campus or convention floor, how does that even work, logistically? - Treating people with basic levels of respect does not magically make them attracted to you, though it will make them more comfortable hanging around you. - If the only (or even the most notable) reason someone can think of for trying to argue against misogyny or other flavors of assholiery is to get laid, that person needs to go home and rethink their fundamental values in life. Implying this is true of men generally is pretty misadrist. I suspect you aren't actually using knowyourmeme's definition, so could you clarify the behavior you're referring to when you say "white-knighting"?
  - brazzy 14y ago
    Since when have gaping flaws in a concept been a deterrent against people trying to implement it? Your typical Internet White Knight is most likely not explicitly aiming to get laid, but simply following the classical role model they've absorbed via Hollywood: women are weak and need to be defended, good men defend them (and get the girl in the end). It can get a bit comical but the real problem is that it takes the form of personal defense in specific cases, and is focused on women. So males getting treated like shit are unlikely to get any help or even sympathy from a White Knight, and they're unlikely to spend any effort on actual solutions to a toxic atmosphere.
  - mattdeboard 14y ago
    Your original thought matches my definition.
  - pekk 14y ago
    There ARE men who jump on others in a showy way for strictly imagined offenses against women. Sometimes (as in perhaps most cases of men fighting in public) the motivation IS at least partly sexual, e.g. to seem attractive, or at least part of an anachronistic image of the chivalrous savior. But the sexual part isn't defining. This doesn't mean that it is wrong to argue against misogyny. It just points to a real phenomenon among men, where they are trying to look like they are calling out an asshole when what is really going on is logically much more similar to acting holy in a bar fight over a woman. If you think observing actual idiotic behavior which occurs sometimes among men is misandrist then I am happy to be a "misandrist" in your perception. I think the condition of men in our society can withstand a small amount of anthropological observation.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  I think the difference between white-knighting and not is whether it's about the woman or the person who's behaving badly. "You shouldn't hit a girl!" <-- white knighting "You are being violent; if you do not stop we will ban you from this space." <-- insisting on basic, reasonable standards of behavior. It's not about women needing special protection, it is about the community not welcoming people who act like assholes. Of course women can defend themselves, but no one should have to defend themselves against that kind of behavior. And the only reason I believe it is important to talk about gender in this context is because women are being targeted because of their gender and using cultural weapons specific to their gender. Again, it is about the people behaving badly, not their targets.
  - pekk 14y ago
    To clarify, it is white-knighting when the woman doesn't care, when there was no actual offense, and it is really just an opportunity for someone to show off about how chivalrous or sensitive they are. You don't have to be sensitive or show yourself off to shut down misogynists and you definitely don't have to go looking for unclear offenses which the purported victims have no complaint about.
    - roguecoder 14y ago
      If the behavior makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't matter what the target thinks of it: I have a right to speak up. Even if the target is bothered by it I don't have a right to speak for her, though I can support her if she does speak up. All I can ever say is, "that behavior bothers me; I don't believe it is acceptable. Please stop." It doesn't matter if the offense is unclear to someone else, because it is about my boundaries, not theirs. You can disagree with my perception, but that doesn't make the behavior any more acceptable to me nor does it change how I feel about it.
      - raganwald 14y ago
        This, a thousand times this. Misogyny, homophobia, racism, even slurs against programmers on the basis of their tool chocies: These are all offensive to me, and I wish to change that for my own reasons. If a man hits his wife, I call the police. If she says, "No, it's ok, I provoked him, I deserve it," do I shrug and say, "Well that's all right then?" Attempting to intimidate me out of speaking up by labelling me a "white knight" and questioning whether my motivation is to seduce women is pretty low and vile, but what I expect from the kind of apologist scum that perpetuate these kinds of social bullying behaviours. "Reg, shut up, you're just trying to sleep with dykes" is not going to work in this or any century.
- raganwald 14y ago
  I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet I don't give a rat's ass what the definition of "white knighting is. I'm calling you out now to be much more specific about what kind of slighting is involved and what you're rolling your eyes at. Give examples. Justify yourself.
  - mattdeboard 14y ago
    The tone/aggressiveness of your response makes it read like you're projecting a bunch of subtext you're bringing into the conversation onto me. I respect you but/so/and I'm not going to play that game.
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pja 14y ago
And this is why you need moderated communities, because otherwise the assholes will dominate the discourse in your chosen milieu and drive out anyone they deem unacceptable. Very often it's women. I don't know why but either there's a class of developers who feel personally threatened by women in their chosen profession, or it's personal: some individual has believed themselves to be entitled to that woman's attention & when it was not forthcoming begin a cruel campaign of punishment to make up for the perceived insult. Maybe even both? It's been said that sunlight is the best disinfectant: I know that I'd be completely unaware of this behaviour if some of the women involved weren't brave enough to speak out about it. I don't have any good solutions though: the best I can do is to refuse to tolerate any sexism in my own circles, on the grounds that the people who do this kind of thing take other people's silence (not wanting to be "that guy") as implicit affirmation of their actions.
- thaumaturgy 14y ago
  Regarding your second paragraph, I think it's primarily a clash of two situations: software development by its nature attracts men who are socially awkward, and the women that are attracted to software development tend not to be there for the attention. Software development has a broader appeal now than it did twenty years ago, and in spite of the numerous cases like this one, there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. (I hope that continues, we need all the talent available.) So, hopefully this will sort itself out in time. In the meantime, I'm more intrigued by the idea of gated communities than I am of moderated communities. Moderation seems to require a lot of resources and lead to conflict. Gated (online) communities don't seem to have been tried as much, and I'm curious about whether or not a lot of social problems would simply solve themselves if not everyone were invited to participate.
  - pja 14y ago
    I doubt women are generally in professional jobs "for the attention" & I don't think this kind of behaviour is limited to men who are socially awkward unfortunately. Gated communities still need moderation: someone has to decide whether or not to kick people out if they behave badly!
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mootothemax 14y ago
Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century? To paraphrase Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, one problem is guys believing that they're too smart to be sexist. I also believe that a lot of people involved can't handle the idea that they're being bullies, and so further attempt to rationalise their actions with terrible analogies and arguments that boil down to "I'm a geek - I'm incapable of oppressing someone!"
- mtrimpe 14y ago
  I think to a large degree it's also about not understanding group dynamics. Let's say that: 35% or so of geeks are closet sexists in reform: aware that their belief systems are wrong / socially unacceptable and trying to change. 5% or so aren't sexists but misogynists: men who truly feel wronged by women and wish to retaliate. 60% are perfectly stand-up men who wouldn't do a bit of harm Now the trick is that whenever the sexist and misogynists form a group where they have a significant majority, the closet sexists will give the misogynists a platform to damage women. Meanwhile the other 60% sees nothing but 95% of perfectly respectful men who would do no harm against women and can't even imagine something like that happening in their company.
- vickytnz 14y ago
  This sort of stuff also ties into the whole 'fake geek girl'thing as well: http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/fake-geek-girls-paranoia-is-about-male-insecurity-not-female-duplicity/267402/ http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/fake-geek-g... Or, the pink ghetto: http://tarahunt.com/2011/09/14/a-pink-collar-tech-ghetto/ http://tarahunt.com/2011/09/14/a-pink-collar-tech-ghetto/
- hmason 14y ago
  This isn't a problem with guys or with developers in general. The vast majority of people who participate in conference are good people. However, it only takes one person (out of thousands!) who has this kind of personality dysfunction to lead an attack, and women are much much more likely to be the target of their dysfunction.
Aaronontheweb 14y ago
If you think the developer community is bad, try advertising / media / sales.
- malachismith 14y ago
  Having worked in both, I actually do not think the developer community is better (or less awful) than the advertising / media / sales community. The former is simply more nuanced and subtle. The sexism in the Ad / Media / Sales world is simply more obvious, unhidden and honest. Both are horrible and grotesque - but to be frank, I think that while there is less respect for women in the Ad / Media / Sales world, there is more women-hating in the Developer community.
  - mnicole 14y ago
    Ditto for me as well. At least in advertising there are other female project managers, assistants and designers you can go to. I've only worked one other job in dev where I've had another female co-worker, and even still that doesn't mean we're close and can confide in each other if we're concerned about something.
  - Aaronontheweb 14y ago
    If we're going to trade ancedotes: I worked at Microsoft, with lots of female co-workers in technical and non-technical roles. I never once hear a DE, SDE, SDET, or any other technical person say anything remotely along the lines of "women suck at programming because they're women." Not once, amongst the hundreds of people I worked with there. That's an anecdote - take it for what it's worth.
    - pjscott 14y ago
      That's what you would expect to observe if either (a) there were negligible sexism, or (b) the sexism was present, but "more nuanced and subtle" in its form. Therefore your observation does not count as strong evidence for distinguishing between these hypotheses. It counts as stronger evidence against widespread overt sexism.
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- mtrimpe 14y ago
  Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it never happens. Sexism at work requires certain group dynamics to flourish and I'm pretty sure your female boss can identify those and make sure they never come to pass. Also... why do you refer to men as men and woman as girls?
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- bonaldi 14y ago
  "NO, WE ARE NOT" followed by a screed that goes to prove you are _exactly_ that. Couldn't have been more beautifully demonstrated.
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- CodeMage 14y ago
  Your comment is the most surprising thing I've read the whole week. The surprise is due to the fact that you led with a statement I wholeheartedly agreed with (no, it's not okay to generalize that we're all sexist) and that set up an expectation that I would agree with the rest. Instead, you came up with a bunch of archetypal examples of why sexism is still very much a problem. But it seems if girls are bad at anything in the computer industry, they aren't actually bad at it, it's just because they are girls and developers are sexist and will not accept them. I don't usually like to be rude, but this particular quote deserves pointing out that you've pulled that stuff out of your ass. Go look on previous HN discussions about sexist treatment and you'll see that most of the time the women's complaints are backed by specific examples of undeniably sexist behavior, such as one of the examples from Sarah's post: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys." I'm in the domain for some years and never ever saw that happening. "Works on my machine" logic. If you haven't seen it, then it must be an exaggeration, perpetrated by all those silly lying women who can't measure up to men and conspire to be treated as equals without merit. You think I'm laying it on too thick? Read the next quote: Girls should just stop complaining about it for their own good. Why, because they're crying wolf? Nobody's going to believe them if they keep doing that, right? I'm being serious here: either you're claiming that they're lying or you're claiming they aren't but they should shut up anyway. From what I've seen in your comment, it seems to be the former, but your mistake is that you're basing it on your anecdotal experience. Doesn't it strike you at least a little bit arrogant to claim that a whole bunch of people are lying just because you haven't personally seen any evidence of something like that happening in your own environment? I'm not talking about expressing skepticism here, you're actually implying that they're lying. Think about it.
ddellacosta 14y ago
I'm a man. We (male) developers don't have to be like this, and many of us aren't. But, I've said it before and I'll say it again: men have even more of a responsibility than women to speak up and combat this kind of sexism. We (men) have the utmost responsibility to make sure that we are fighting to allow women a place in our industry, a place where they feel safe enough so that they can be equal participants without worrying about being looked down upon, harassed or concerned for their safety. The sad reality is, more than having courageous women speaking up about sexism, men speaking up about sexism convinces other men to treat women respectfully.
- saraid216 14y ago
  > But, I've said it before and I'll say it again: men have even more of a responsibility than women to speak up and combat this kind of sexism. Some advice on how to do this, for anyone looking: http://www.anamardoll.com/2012/11/deconstruction-how-to-be-male-ally.html http://www.anamardoll.com/2012/11/deconstruction-how-to-be-m...
mwetzler 14y ago
On Friday I pitched my company to a room of 150 developers, since my company was a hackathon sponsor. I was the only female speaker out of about 15. Afterwards, a well-known, elite developer asked me if I programmed. When I said yes, he said that made me 50% less attractive. Then he asked me if I cooked and cleaned. To my face. You don't have to be high profile to deal with this stuff. Just being in a room where you're 1 female out of 15 males is enough to get this kind of attention.
- rachelbythebay 14y ago
  I wonder what would happen if someone found out who this "elite developer" was.
  - tedks 14y ago
    Probably nothing. There would maybe be a few blog posts about it. Their comments would be filled with men defending his actions and suggesting that anyone calling him out was lying, that the real problem is "women that get offended too easily" or "women that don't get jokes," and straight-up male superiority.
    - Geekette 14y ago
      Pretty much. I for one have had it up to here though. The next incidence I encounter will be called out at the very least to the person's face on the spot, if not also online.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    I don't know how it works in the US, but it's her face and her name, so can't she just get a lawyer to get a court to order the website to hand over some details? And then get another court to get the ISP to hand over some more details? And then give those to the police?
- jellicle 14y ago
  You know, naming names is probably one of the best ways to combat this. Silence helps the asshole keep doing it. I understand the reasons why you might not want to. It's tragedy of the commons problem; you get no benefit and possible detriment from naming names - only society as a whole benefits. Nevertheless you should. It's the right thing to do.
hopeless_case 14y ago
> What a nasty bunch of people we are. Why is wondering aloud how sexist/creepy the bulk of male programmers are more acceptable than wondering aloud how untalented the bulk of female programmers are? I think both behaviors are rather low shaming behaviors.
- andrewcooke 14y ago
  because discrimination is about power. if two groups have equal amounts of power it really doesn't matter that much (except for social courtesy sake) what they say about each other. discrimination is a problem when it's associated with inequality. it's a big deal when a majority bash a minority. the other way round, not so much. even less so when the criticism is internal to the majority.
  - hopeless_case 14y ago
    I think you are conflating these two statements (the apex fallacy): 1. Most of the those who have power are men. 2. Most of those who are men have power. They are very different statements and one does not imply the other. The average man has no more power than the average woman.
    - h2s 14y ago
      > The average man has no more power than the average woman. Can the average woman apply for any given technical position with an equal chance of being interviewed by a person of her gender? When the average woman's colleagues organise a social event outside of work, does she feel as powerful as the average man when she's the only female in a room full of inebriated men? When the average woman's colleague accidentally says something sexist and nobody else notices because she has no female colleagues, is she as powerful as the average man?
      - hopeless_case 14y ago
        Can the average man expect to marry a woman with a higher educational attainment than him, who will bear more of the load of providing for the family so he can spend more time with the children? Does a man have an equal chance of getting a college degree (college enrollment and graduation now favors women by 60 to 40 percent)? When a man's wife beats him up and the police not only refuse to take him seriously, but arrest him instead (the primary aggressor doctrine) how does that make him more powerful than the average woman?
Tichy 14y ago
I don't like being compared to some random person (of unknown gender) who attacked a woman in an online forum just because I am a developer, thank you very much!
kapowaz 14y ago
Sexism is alive and well in the 21st Century. Look at how women are treated in the Middle East. Listen to stories of the rape culture in Delhi. Pay inequality the world over. A media industry which sees young women as commodities to sell their product. What we're seeing here is the thin end of the wedge; the individual who committed this disgusting act would probably have felt entitled to behave this way even were they working in another industry. It's ugly, but this is a very large societal problem that we're still really struggling to address. As pleased as I was to see President Obama address gay rights in his inauguration, it was equally significant that he addressed gender equality. We've a long way to go before this is fixed, but rather than indulging in self-pity or recrimination, how about we work to be the change we want to see in the world?

by h2s 14y ago

tudorw 14y ago

I agree, all the stuff I read it's like going back a century, we are supposed to be on the vanguard of a brave new world, not re-hashing the same dumb ass attitude that has contaminated the past decades. Grow up, get on and be nice.

nollidge 14y ago
See, but the fact that you're reading about it at all, that people are arguing about it at all, means we're doing better. The fact that outrage about sexism even exists is progress. It's the (slight) progress of shining a harsh light on the previously unnoticed realities that were always there.
- lizzard 14y ago
  Maybe, but I'm in my 40s and have been reading and arguing about it as well as experiencing it for my whole life.

mattdeboard 14y ago

Seriously. I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet but holy crap I get nervous for my girlfriend who's a talented programmer and about to graduate with a CS degree. Is this kind of bullshit in store for her? Sheesh.

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afarrell 14y ago
Are you sure you aren't confusing "white knight" for "person who doesn't appreciate seeing other people treated like shit"? I originally thought that phrase meant something like "Claiming to represent someone's position or speak for them when they can very well speak for themselves." But assuming that http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight is a credible source, that phrase actually refers to dudes who argue against misogyny because they want to get laid. I hope that isn't the sense in which you're using it because there are some gaping flaws in that concept: - Unless you're all using your real names and on the same campus or convention floor, how does that even work, logistically? - Treating people with basic levels of respect does not magically make them attracted to you, though it will make them more comfortable hanging around you. - If the only (or even the most notable) reason someone can think of for trying to argue against misogyny or other flavors of assholiery is to get laid, that person needs to go home and rethink their fundamental values in life. Implying this is true of men generally is pretty misadrist. I suspect you aren't actually using knowyourmeme's definition, so could you clarify the behavior you're referring to when you say "white-knighting"?
- brazzy 14y ago
  Since when have gaping flaws in a concept been a deterrent against people trying to implement it? Your typical Internet White Knight is most likely not explicitly aiming to get laid, but simply following the classical role model they've absorbed via Hollywood: women are weak and need to be defended, good men defend them (and get the girl in the end). It can get a bit comical but the real problem is that it takes the form of personal defense in specific cases, and is focused on women. So males getting treated like shit are unlikely to get any help or even sympathy from a White Knight, and they're unlikely to spend any effort on actual solutions to a toxic atmosphere.
- mattdeboard 14y ago
  Your original thought matches my definition.
- pekk 14y ago
  There ARE men who jump on others in a showy way for strictly imagined offenses against women. Sometimes (as in perhaps most cases of men fighting in public) the motivation IS at least partly sexual, e.g. to seem attractive, or at least part of an anachronistic image of the chivalrous savior. But the sexual part isn't defining. This doesn't mean that it is wrong to argue against misogyny. It just points to a real phenomenon among men, where they are trying to look like they are calling out an asshole when what is really going on is logically much more similar to acting holy in a bar fight over a woman. If you think observing actual idiotic behavior which occurs sometimes among men is misandrist then I am happy to be a "misandrist" in your perception. I think the condition of men in our society can withstand a small amount of anthropological observation.
roguecoder 14y ago
I think the difference between white-knighting and not is whether it's about the woman or the person who's behaving badly. "You shouldn't hit a girl!" <-- white knighting "You are being violent; if you do not stop we will ban you from this space." <-- insisting on basic, reasonable standards of behavior. It's not about women needing special protection, it is about the community not welcoming people who act like assholes. Of course women can defend themselves, but no one should have to defend themselves against that kind of behavior. And the only reason I believe it is important to talk about gender in this context is because women are being targeted because of their gender and using cultural weapons specific to their gender. Again, it is about the people behaving badly, not their targets.
- pekk 14y ago
  To clarify, it is white-knighting when the woman doesn't care, when there was no actual offense, and it is really just an opportunity for someone to show off about how chivalrous or sensitive they are. You don't have to be sensitive or show yourself off to shut down misogynists and you definitely don't have to go looking for unclear offenses which the purported victims have no complaint about.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    If the behavior makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't matter what the target thinks of it: I have a right to speak up. Even if the target is bothered by it I don't have a right to speak for her, though I can support her if she does speak up. All I can ever say is, "that behavior bothers me; I don't believe it is acceptable. Please stop." It doesn't matter if the offense is unclear to someone else, because it is about my boundaries, not theirs. You can disagree with my perception, but that doesn't make the behavior any more acceptable to me nor does it change how I feel about it.
    - raganwald 14y ago
      This, a thousand times this. Misogyny, homophobia, racism, even slurs against programmers on the basis of their tool chocies: These are all offensive to me, and I wish to change that for my own reasons. If a man hits his wife, I call the police. If she says, "No, it's ok, I provoked him, I deserve it," do I shrug and say, "Well that's all right then?" Attempting to intimidate me out of speaking up by labelling me a "white knight" and questioning whether my motivation is to seduce women is pretty low and vile, but what I expect from the kind of apologist scum that perpetuate these kinds of social bullying behaviours. "Reg, shut up, you're just trying to sleep with dykes" is not going to work in this or any century.
raganwald 14y ago
I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet I don't give a rat's ass what the definition of "white knighting is. I'm calling you out now to be much more specific about what kind of slighting is involved and what you're rolling your eyes at. Give examples. Justify yourself.
- mattdeboard 14y ago
  The tone/aggressiveness of your response makes it read like you're projecting a bunch of subtext you're bringing into the conversation onto me. I respect you but/so/and I'm not going to play that game.

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pja 14y ago

And this is why you need moderated communities, because otherwise the assholes will dominate the discourse in your chosen milieu and drive out anyone they deem unacceptable. Very often it's women. I don't know why but either there's a class of developers who feel personally threatened by women in their chosen profession, or it's personal: some individual has believed themselves to be entitled to that woman's attention & when it was not forthcoming begin a cruel campaign of punishment to make up for the perceived insult. Maybe even both? It's been said that sunlight is the best disinfectant: I know that I'd be completely unaware of this behaviour if some of the women involved weren't brave enough to speak out about it. I don't have any good solutions though: the best I can do is to refuse to tolerate any sexism in my own circles, on the grounds that the people who do this kind of thing take other people's silence (not wanting to be "that guy") as implicit affirmation of their actions.

thaumaturgy 14y ago
Regarding your second paragraph, I think it's primarily a clash of two situations: software development by its nature attracts men who are socially awkward, and the women that are attracted to software development tend not to be there for the attention. Software development has a broader appeal now than it did twenty years ago, and in spite of the numerous cases like this one, there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. (I hope that continues, we need all the talent available.) So, hopefully this will sort itself out in time. In the meantime, I'm more intrigued by the idea of gated communities than I am of moderated communities. Moderation seems to require a lot of resources and lead to conflict. Gated (online) communities don't seem to have been tried as much, and I'm curious about whether or not a lot of social problems would simply solve themselves if not everyone were invited to participate.
- pja 14y ago
  I doubt women are generally in professional jobs "for the attention" & I don't think this kind of behaviour is limited to men who are socially awkward unfortunately. Gated communities still need moderation: someone has to decide whether or not to kick people out if they behave badly!

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mootothemax 14y ago

Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century? To paraphrase Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, one problem is guys believing that they're too smart to be sexist. I also believe that a lot of people involved can't handle the idea that they're being bullies, and so further attempt to rationalise their actions with terrible analogies and arguments that boil down to "I'm a geek - I'm incapable of oppressing someone!"

mtrimpe 14y ago
I think to a large degree it's also about not understanding group dynamics. Let's say that: 35% or so of geeks are closet sexists in reform: aware that their belief systems are wrong / socially unacceptable and trying to change. 5% or so aren't sexists but misogynists: men who truly feel wronged by women and wish to retaliate. 60% are perfectly stand-up men who wouldn't do a bit of harm Now the trick is that whenever the sexist and misogynists form a group where they have a significant majority, the closet sexists will give the misogynists a platform to damage women. Meanwhile the other 60% sees nothing but 95% of perfectly respectful men who would do no harm against women and can't even imagine something like that happening in their company.
vickytnz 14y ago
This sort of stuff also ties into the whole 'fake geek girl'thing as well: http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/fake-geek-girls-paranoia-is-about-male-insecurity-not-female-duplicity/267402/ http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/fake-geek-g... Or, the pink ghetto: http://tarahunt.com/2011/09/14/a-pink-collar-tech-ghetto/ http://tarahunt.com/2011/09/14/a-pink-collar-tech-ghetto/
hmason 14y ago
This isn't a problem with guys or with developers in general. The vast majority of people who participate in conference are good people. However, it only takes one person (out of thousands!) who has this kind of personality dysfunction to lead an attack, and women are much much more likely to be the target of their dysfunction.

Aaronontheweb 14y ago

If you think the developer community is bad, try advertising / media / sales.

malachismith 14y ago
Having worked in both, I actually do not think the developer community is better (or less awful) than the advertising / media / sales community. The former is simply more nuanced and subtle. The sexism in the Ad / Media / Sales world is simply more obvious, unhidden and honest. Both are horrible and grotesque - but to be frank, I think that while there is less respect for women in the Ad / Media / Sales world, there is more women-hating in the Developer community.
- mnicole 14y ago
  Ditto for me as well. At least in advertising there are other female project managers, assistants and designers you can go to. I've only worked one other job in dev where I've had another female co-worker, and even still that doesn't mean we're close and can confide in each other if we're concerned about something.
- Aaronontheweb 14y ago
  If we're going to trade ancedotes: I worked at Microsoft, with lots of female co-workers in technical and non-technical roles. I never once hear a DE, SDE, SDET, or any other technical person say anything remotely along the lines of "women suck at programming because they're women." Not once, amongst the hundreds of people I worked with there. That's an anecdote - take it for what it's worth.
  - pjscott 14y ago
    That's what you would expect to observe if either (a) there were negligible sexism, or (b) the sexism was present, but "more nuanced and subtle" in its form. Therefore your observation does not count as strong evidence for distinguishing between these hypotheses. It counts as stronger evidence against widespread overt sexism.

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mtrimpe 14y ago
Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it never happens. Sexism at work requires certain group dynamics to flourish and I'm pretty sure your female boss can identify those and make sure they never come to pass. Also... why do you refer to men as men and woman as girls?
- deleted 14y ago
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bonaldi 14y ago
"NO, WE ARE NOT" followed by a screed that goes to prove you are _exactly_ that. Couldn't have been more beautifully demonstrated.
- deleted 14y ago
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CodeMage 14y ago
Your comment is the most surprising thing I've read the whole week. The surprise is due to the fact that you led with a statement I wholeheartedly agreed with (no, it's not okay to generalize that we're all sexist) and that set up an expectation that I would agree with the rest. Instead, you came up with a bunch of archetypal examples of why sexism is still very much a problem. But it seems if girls are bad at anything in the computer industry, they aren't actually bad at it, it's just because they are girls and developers are sexist and will not accept them. I don't usually like to be rude, but this particular quote deserves pointing out that you've pulled that stuff out of your ass. Go look on previous HN discussions about sexist treatment and you'll see that most of the time the women's complaints are backed by specific examples of undeniably sexist behavior, such as one of the examples from Sarah's post: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys." I'm in the domain for some years and never ever saw that happening. "Works on my machine" logic. If you haven't seen it, then it must be an exaggeration, perpetrated by all those silly lying women who can't measure up to men and conspire to be treated as equals without merit. You think I'm laying it on too thick? Read the next quote: Girls should just stop complaining about it for their own good. Why, because they're crying wolf? Nobody's going to believe them if they keep doing that, right? I'm being serious here: either you're claiming that they're lying or you're claiming they aren't but they should shut up anyway. From what I've seen in your comment, it seems to be the former, but your mistake is that you're basing it on your anecdotal experience. Doesn't it strike you at least a little bit arrogant to claim that a whole bunch of people are lying just because you haven't personally seen any evidence of something like that happening in your own environment? I'm not talking about expressing skepticism here, you're actually implying that they're lying. Think about it.

ddellacosta 14y ago

I'm a man. We (male) developers don't have to be like this, and many of us aren't. But, I've said it before and I'll say it again: men have even more of a responsibility than women to speak up and combat this kind of sexism. We (men) have the utmost responsibility to make sure that we are fighting to allow women a place in our industry, a place where they feel safe enough so that they can be equal participants without worrying about being looked down upon, harassed or concerned for their safety. The sad reality is, more than having courageous women speaking up about sexism, men speaking up about sexism convinces other men to treat women respectfully.

saraid216 14y ago
> But, I've said it before and I'll say it again: men have even more of a responsibility than women to speak up and combat this kind of sexism. Some advice on how to do this, for anyone looking: http://www.anamardoll.com/2012/11/deconstruction-how-to-be-male-ally.html http://www.anamardoll.com/2012/11/deconstruction-how-to-be-m...

mwetzler 14y ago

On Friday I pitched my company to a room of 150 developers, since my company was a hackathon sponsor. I was the only female speaker out of about 15. Afterwards, a well-known, elite developer asked me if I programmed. When I said yes, he said that made me 50% less attractive. Then he asked me if I cooked and cleaned. To my face. You don't have to be high profile to deal with this stuff. Just being in a room where you're 1 female out of 15 males is enough to get this kind of attention.

rachelbythebay 14y ago
I wonder what would happen if someone found out who this "elite developer" was.
- tedks 14y ago
  Probably nothing. There would maybe be a few blog posts about it. Their comments would be filled with men defending his actions and suggesting that anyone calling him out was lying, that the real problem is "women that get offended too easily" or "women that don't get jokes," and straight-up male superiority.
  - Geekette 14y ago
    Pretty much. I for one have had it up to here though. The next incidence I encounter will be called out at the very least to the person's face on the spot, if not also online.
- DanBC 14y ago
  I don't know how it works in the US, but it's her face and her name, so can't she just get a lawyer to get a court to order the website to hand over some details? And then get another court to get the ISP to hand over some more details? And then give those to the police?
jellicle 14y ago
You know, naming names is probably one of the best ways to combat this. Silence helps the asshole keep doing it. I understand the reasons why you might not want to. It's tragedy of the commons problem; you get no benefit and possible detriment from naming names - only society as a whole benefits. Nevertheless you should. It's the right thing to do.

hopeless_case 14y ago

> What a nasty bunch of people we are. Why is wondering aloud how sexist/creepy the bulk of male programmers are more acceptable than wondering aloud how untalented the bulk of female programmers are? I think both behaviors are rather low shaming behaviors.

andrewcooke 14y ago
because discrimination is about power. if two groups have equal amounts of power it really doesn't matter that much (except for social courtesy sake) what they say about each other. discrimination is a problem when it's associated with inequality. it's a big deal when a majority bash a minority. the other way round, not so much. even less so when the criticism is internal to the majority.
- hopeless_case 14y ago
  I think you are conflating these two statements (the apex fallacy): 1. Most of the those who have power are men. 2. Most of those who are men have power. They are very different statements and one does not imply the other. The average man has no more power than the average woman.
  - h2s 14y ago
    > The average man has no more power than the average woman. Can the average woman apply for any given technical position with an equal chance of being interviewed by a person of her gender? When the average woman's colleagues organise a social event outside of work, does she feel as powerful as the average man when she's the only female in a room full of inebriated men? When the average woman's colleague accidentally says something sexist and nobody else notices because she has no female colleagues, is she as powerful as the average man?
    - hopeless_case 14y ago
      Can the average man expect to marry a woman with a higher educational attainment than him, who will bear more of the load of providing for the family so he can spend more time with the children? Does a man have an equal chance of getting a college degree (college enrollment and graduation now favors women by 60 to 40 percent)? When a man's wife beats him up and the police not only refuse to take him seriously, but arrest him instead (the primary aggressor doctrine) how does that make him more powerful than the average woman?

Tichy 14y ago

I don't like being compared to some random person (of unknown gender) who attacked a woman in an online forum just because I am a developer, thank you very much!

kapowaz 14y ago

Sexism is alive and well in the 21st Century. Look at how women are treated in the Middle East. Listen to stories of the rape culture in Delhi. Pay inequality the world over. A media industry which sees young women as commodities to sell their product. What we're seeing here is the thin end of the wedge; the individual who committed this disgusting act would probably have felt entitled to behave this way even were they working in another industry. It's ugly, but this is a very large societal problem that we're still really struggling to address. As pleased as I was to see President Obama address gay rights in his inauguration, it was equally significant that he addressed gender equality. We've a long way to go before this is fixed, but rather than indulging in self-pity or recrimination, how about we work to be the change we want to see in the world?