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He writes about direct value of Bitcoin - but half of the examples he mentions are about crypto in general not about the particular system: - Smart Property is

by zby 14y ago

He writes about direct value of Bitcoin - but half of the examples he mentions are about crypto in general not about the particular system: - Smart Property is just a theoretical proposal for a system and the linked page says: Smart property was first proposed by Nick Szabo in his 1997 paper, "The idea of smart contracts". There are currently no implementations of this idea. - decentralized DNS is realized in a different system that uses the code from bitcoin software but is not connected in any way to the bitcoin system itself: http://dot-bit.org/Main_Page http://dot-bit.org/Main_Page I guess you can use bitcoin to do secure time-stamping of messages that can fit into the format of a bitcoin transaction (there is some place for comments or something) - so you can piggyback a message on a bitcoin transaction. Finally https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts seem to be connected to the existing bitcoin system, but it is not clear how much of it is already implemented in the clients.

jerguismi 14y ago
More accurate title would be "direct value of cryptocurrency". Bitcoin has very conservative approach with this. The core developers won't merge any features which don't serve the basic idea of currency. However alternative chains could be used to develop many of these systems. I think there can be a tremendous value with public database, not controlled by anyone. Lately I have been thinking about alt-chain which could be used as a distributed stock/asset/IPO ledger. Similar to http://www.bitcoinx.org/ http://www.bitcoinx.org/ , but done in a separate chain to server the needs better.
- oleganza 14y ago
  See my comment above. Many cool features (like timestamping) do not need any modification of the existing software. E.g. it is entirely possible to make DNS without alternative chain (like Namecoin), but fully on the existing block chain with timestamping through deterministic addresses.
runn1ng 14y ago
since I am almost out of battery I won't comment long, but the place for comment is highly theoretical. the transaction with comment is legal according to protocol, but non-standard and as such the official client refuses to propagate it through the p2p network. and because there is a client monoculture, you are out of luck with non-standard transactions if you are not owning a mining pool yourself. IF the non-standard transaction gets into blockchain, THEN the comment stays there forever. but it really never propagates.
- quinndupont 14y ago
  And this happens with some regularity. The number of orphaned branches on the blockchain is surprisingly (to me, at least) significant (last I looked, around a dozen).
oleganza 14y ago
The cool thing about block chain as it is right now (even with incomplete support for multi-signature tricks), it already allows you to leave a trace of your document using addresses alone. Without any piggybacking - you just create a transaction address derived from a hash of your document, move your money in and out, then publish the document. Everybody can compute the keys and verify that the address is indeed derived from that paper and you indeed had this document created before the transaction was recorded.
- javert 14y ago
  you just create a transaction address derived from a hash of your document How do you do that?
  - oleganza 14y ago
    You interpret your hash as a private key. Or as a seed for the private key. Then out of the private key you compute a public key, which when hashed with SHA256 and RIPEMD-160 gives you an address. Then, before disclosing the document, you transfer some amount to that address and back to your private address. After that, reveal the document: now everyone can repeat the procedure and verify that you have created that document (because you can always prove that you own that "coin" which travelled through the synthetic address). You can play with keys and addresses here: http://brainwallet.org http://brainwallet.org
    - javert 14y ago
      Wow! I didn't realize that you could generate a public key given a private key. To me, keypair generation was just a "black box." I should have known (probably studied it in class.) Thanks.
quinndupont 14y ago
You're absolutely right. I'm currently researching the cryptographic elements of bitcoin for this exact reason: ecash schemes actually rely on the power afforded by cryptography. In my mind, the economic disruption is actually less exciting. When I'm done the research and it goes to press I'll keep the HN community posted, since there seems to be quite a bit of excitement here on Bitcoin.
MacsHeadroom 14y ago
He writes about direct value of steel - but half of the examples he mentions are about metal in general and not about the particular alloy. While true, I don't see the relevance of this point. Bitcoin is a commodity with non-money uses. Yes, some of those over lap with other cryptography technology. But that doesn't really change anything.

by zby 14y ago

jerguismi 14y ago

More accurate title would be "direct value of cryptocurrency". Bitcoin has very conservative approach with this. The core developers won't merge any features which don't serve the basic idea of currency. However alternative chains could be used to develop many of these systems. I think there can be a tremendous value with public database, not controlled by anyone. Lately I have been thinking about alt-chain which could be used as a distributed stock/asset/IPO ledger. Similar to http://www.bitcoinx.org/ http://www.bitcoinx.org/ , but done in a separate chain to server the needs better.

oleganza 14y ago
See my comment above. Many cool features (like timestamping) do not need any modification of the existing software. E.g. it is entirely possible to make DNS without alternative chain (like Namecoin), but fully on the existing block chain with timestamping through deterministic addresses.

runn1ng 14y ago

since I am almost out of battery I won't comment long, but the place for comment is highly theoretical. the transaction with comment is legal according to protocol, but non-standard and as such the official client refuses to propagate it through the p2p network. and because there is a client monoculture, you are out of luck with non-standard transactions if you are not owning a mining pool yourself. IF the non-standard transaction gets into blockchain, THEN the comment stays there forever. but it really never propagates.

quinndupont 14y ago
And this happens with some regularity. The number of orphaned branches on the blockchain is surprisingly (to me, at least) significant (last I looked, around a dozen).

oleganza 14y ago

The cool thing about block chain as it is right now (even with incomplete support for multi-signature tricks), it already allows you to leave a trace of your document using addresses alone. Without any piggybacking - you just create a transaction address derived from a hash of your document, move your money in and out, then publish the document. Everybody can compute the keys and verify that the address is indeed derived from that paper and you indeed had this document created before the transaction was recorded.

javert 14y ago
you just create a transaction address derived from a hash of your document How do you do that?
- oleganza 14y ago
  You interpret your hash as a private key. Or as a seed for the private key. Then out of the private key you compute a public key, which when hashed with SHA256 and RIPEMD-160 gives you an address. Then, before disclosing the document, you transfer some amount to that address and back to your private address. After that, reveal the document: now everyone can repeat the procedure and verify that you have created that document (because you can always prove that you own that "coin" which travelled through the synthetic address). You can play with keys and addresses here: http://brainwallet.org http://brainwallet.org
  - javert 14y ago
    Wow! I didn't realize that you could generate a public key given a private key. To me, keypair generation was just a "black box." I should have known (probably studied it in class.) Thanks.

quinndupont 14y ago

You're absolutely right. I'm currently researching the cryptographic elements of bitcoin for this exact reason: ecash schemes actually rely on the power afforded by cryptography. In my mind, the economic disruption is actually less exciting. When I'm done the research and it goes to press I'll keep the HN community posted, since there seems to be quite a bit of excitement here on Bitcoin.

MacsHeadroom 14y ago

He writes about direct value of steel - but half of the examples he mentions are about metal in general and not about the particular alloy. While true, I don't see the relevance of this point. Bitcoin is a commodity with non-money uses. Yes, some of those over lap with other cryptography technology. But that doesn't really change anything.