3 ms·

The list is interesting and mostly true (IMHO). There is just one point where I differ with you: "Formal Qualifications This is more a of non-indicator than a

by katz 18y ago

The list is interesting and mostly true (IMHO). There is just one point where I differ with you: "Formal Qualifications This is more a of non-indicator than a counter-indicator. The key point to outline here is that formal qualifications don’t mean squat when you’re trying to recognise a good programmer." Qualifications is an effective way to limit at least some of the people. Most 4 year university degrees require at least a basic level of intelligence and commitment. It is true that there are a lot of professional Comp. Science bullshitters out there with degrees (I know quite a few) but on the average you will be luckier with a university guy. This does not just mean that you should look for Computer Science – applied mathematicians are also a good bet (based on other qualifications). (Of course there are also excellent programmers without degrees – but it is extremely difficult to find). Another thing – something as simple as a typing test may help you. There are people out there that claim to be programmers (esp. freshly out of college) but do not really program (further than the task at hand). People who programs a lot for a long time will generally type faster than people who do not really program. Also I think that to hire someone is fairly expensive (at least $50,000 a year in the states). If you make a bad decision it is a lot of money down the drain and one bad guy can ruin the atmosphere of a whole company. Why not hire a programmer (that you know to be competent) to help you with the interview? I am sure that a $1000 expense is less than the risk of wasting $50,000.

jwilliams 18y ago
Wow - the typing thing seems to be popping up here a bit lately. You'd seriously give a someway qualified programmer a typing test? I don't think qualifications are a great hurdle requirement, but they are one of the indicators that are useful. Pretty much the best indication of how someone will do is past performance - and a degree contributes to that. As for trade qualifications - e.g. Certified CompanyXYZ Professional. I've often found them to be neutral or counter-indicators -- quite often they are (1) even though you know this stuff inside out to do this work we mandate this qualification or (2) I heard XYZ professionals get paid a lot so I'll buy a "get your XYZ professional cert in 15 days" book and qualify. In my experience anyway -- I've not done a massive amount of hiring really, but the # of positions would be in the 30's or 40's.
wheels 18y ago
Both of these suggestions seem bogus. I suspect people with a degree in computer science or applied mathematics tend to be on average better programmers than people who claim to be programmers who don't have those degrees. But the bar set by simply having a degree is so incredibly far from the level that you'd want out of your technical lead that it's not much of a useful metric. Typing seems even odder. Doubly so where I live as they don't teach folks in school here to touch-type. These days I'd suspect that typing speed is probably more correlated to the speed with which one sends IMs than how fast they code. Really, if your hiring requirements are "a guy with a degree that types quickly" you're going to find yourself pretty quickly up shit creek.
- katz 18y ago
  > average better programmers than people who claim to be programmers who don't have those degrees. I doubt that. Further more a person with a degree has on the average a higher intelligence than a person without. Also, most degrees have language requirements and subjects that at least ensures that the person has a basic grasp of grammar and spelling. > Typing seems even odder. Doubly so where I live as they don't teach folks in school here to touch-type. You should at least check if a person can type. There are a lot of so called "programmers" that can not even type properly. > Really, if your hiring requirements are "a guy with a degree that types quickly" you're going to find yourself pretty quickly up shit creek. You constructed a straw man – no where did I suggest you should only use these metrics – my suggestion was that it made sense to hire/contract a programmer to help you make the hiring decision.

by katz 18y ago

jwilliams 18y ago

Wow - the typing thing seems to be popping up here a bit lately. You'd seriously give a someway qualified programmer a typing test? I don't think qualifications are a great hurdle requirement, but they are one of the indicators that are useful. Pretty much the best indication of how someone will do is past performance - and a degree contributes to that. As for trade qualifications - e.g. Certified CompanyXYZ Professional. I've often found them to be neutral or counter-indicators -- quite often they are (1) even though you know this stuff inside out to do this work we mandate this qualification or (2) I heard XYZ professionals get paid a lot so I'll buy a "get your XYZ professional cert in 15 days" book and qualify. In my experience anyway -- I've not done a massive amount of hiring really, but the # of positions would be in the 30's or 40's.

wheels 18y ago

Both of these suggestions seem bogus. I suspect people with a degree in computer science or applied mathematics tend to be on average better programmers than people who claim to be programmers who don't have those degrees. But the bar set by simply having a degree is so incredibly far from the level that you'd want out of your technical lead that it's not much of a useful metric. Typing seems even odder. Doubly so where I live as they don't teach folks in school here to touch-type. These days I'd suspect that typing speed is probably more correlated to the speed with which one sends IMs than how fast they code. Really, if your hiring requirements are "a guy with a degree that types quickly" you're going to find yourself pretty quickly up shit creek.

katz 18y ago
> average better programmers than people who claim to be programmers who don't have those degrees. I doubt that. Further more a person with a degree has on the average a higher intelligence than a person without. Also, most degrees have language requirements and subjects that at least ensures that the person has a basic grasp of grammar and spelling. > Typing seems even odder. Doubly so where I live as they don't teach folks in school here to touch-type. You should at least check if a person can type. There are a lot of so called "programmers" that can not even type properly. > Really, if your hiring requirements are "a guy with a degree that types quickly" you're going to find yourself pretty quickly up shit creek. You constructed a straw man – no where did I suggest you should only use these metrics – my suggestion was that it made sense to hire/contract a programmer to help you make the hiring decision.