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> (assuming productive hours == 8/day, 5 days/week) Bad assumption. > If maintaining a living (comfortable or not) requires 100% of our productive work time (

> (assuming productive hours == 8/day, 5 days/week) Bad assumption. > If maintaining a living (comfortable or not) requires 100% of our productive work time (40 hours/week) then how are you not a slave to that subsistence lifestyle? What is "subsistence" about it? I understand subsistence living to mean "having just enough to survive."

samstave 14y ago
Jesus, you and ctdonath sound like 20-something morons. Get a fucking life with several mortgages and children. Or, better yet - go live the idolized life of the genius software development hermit you both appear to think yourself to be. What a wonderful life that will be. I am so sick of these douchebag HNers that all think of themselves to be the next rails revolution and have no fucking clue as to what it actually costs to live a normal life in Silicon Valley with kids (even when, as I have, you have been living and working in tech for 20 years) Get the fuck out.
- saryant 14y ago
  People might be more receptive to your argument if you weren't rude to them.
- Daniel_Newby 14y ago
  > ... what it actually costs to live a normal life in Silicon Valley with kids ... By design, the Valley's zoning laws create an artificial shortage of housing units. It costs a lot to live a "normal life" in order to keep out the riff raff.
  - samstave 14y ago
    How does this defen the guys claim "Ill show you how to live well off $10/hr." Every person on HN should realize that they are worth more than $10/hr. Stop defending living in poverty as an exploit of others.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      He wasn't suggesting that you do it; he was suggesting that it is possible.
- lotharbot 14y ago
  > "Get ... several mortgages and children." > "live a normal life in Silicon Valley with kids" It seems to me this is exactly the point being made. You can live on a lot less money than whatever you currently consider "normal", but not necessarily in your current location or at your current level of consumption. Whatever it costs you to live comfortably in SV with kids, it probably costs me half that to live comfortably in Denver with kids. I know of families living on less than half of what I do in places like Japan, who would consider themselves quite comfortable. If financing your current lifestyle leaves you with no free time to enjoy life, you're a slave to that lifestyle -- whether it's on $5k or $500k a year. If "living in Silicon Valley" is non-negotiable, it's going to take a lot more earning power to get out of that type of "slavery" than if you're willing to live in Belize.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    > it probably costs me half that to live comfortably in Denver with kids. That's a horrible comparison. The difference in potential salaries, potential connections, business opportunities and so on would put make Denver the expensive one IMO (costs half as much as SV to have none of those advantages? wtf!).
    - lotharbot 14y ago
      > "The difference in potential salaries, potential connections, business opportunities and so on would put make Denver the expensive one IMO" If you're one of those near the top of the spectrum, making 25 or more times the median salary or starting up a business that truly blows up, perhaps. In which case you wouldn't be complaining that it's hard to raise kids in SV. If you're an average joe coder, or even fairly above average, you're making 10% less in Denver and you have fewer options for tech companies (but still plenty locally, and some decent remote options). But you can buy a nice house here for well under $200k and live ten minutes from work. For the vast majority of people, it's far less expensive. The point here is not to convince you, personally, to move to Denver. Just to clarify that there's a whole spectrum of places to live at all sorts of prices, with all sorts of advantages and disadvantages. The GGP post implied that "live a normal life in SV" was the only option, which is of course absurd. There are advantages to living in SV, but they do not come without costs.
- xtracto 14y ago
  Can you please go back to Slashdot? you are polluting an otherwise interesting discussion.
  - qu4z-2 14y ago
    That was somewhat uncalled for.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Sam. Breathe.
- nitrogen 14y ago
  If something else about life is bothering you, it's probably best not to take it out on us naive 20-somethings. Either way it's clear something about this thread has deeply upset you (happens to all of us), so if it's something deeper going on I wish you luck sorting it out. If not, at the least, I too wish it was possible to live on $10/day and still have some semblance of a family and social life.
  - userulluipeste 14y ago
    I met a lot of people probably like samstave, making a lot of uninspired decisions, like drowning themselves in debt and such, then here comes someone telling about $10/day... Those people feel miserably and "deeply upset" of course, especially because there is no easy way out.
    - samstave 14y ago
      I have zero debt. I make well over $100K per year. I just get really riled up by the soapbox statements like "I can show you how to live on $10/day" and stating things like "move out of the bay area." a "Simple move" and "no excuses" This "advice" is ridiculous. It is simply stupid and arrogant for someone to claim that you can live off $10/day.
    - nitrogen 14y ago
      It doesn't even have to take "uninspired" decisions. Simply having other human beings depend on you for their existence is enough to make escaping the system impossible, along with a number of other hurdles like lacking transportation to wherever $10/day is enough.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

samstave 14y ago

Jesus, you and ctdonath sound like 20-something morons. Get a fucking life with several mortgages and children. Or, better yet - go live the idolized life of the genius software development hermit you both appear to think yourself to be. What a wonderful life that will be. I am so sick of these douchebag HNers that all think of themselves to be the next rails revolution and have no fucking clue as to what it actually costs to live a normal life in Silicon Valley with kids (even when, as I have, you have been living and working in tech for 20 years) Get the fuck out.

saryant 14y ago
People might be more receptive to your argument if you weren't rude to them.
Daniel_Newby 14y ago
> ... what it actually costs to live a normal life in Silicon Valley with kids ... By design, the Valley's zoning laws create an artificial shortage of housing units. It costs a lot to live a "normal life" in order to keep out the riff raff.
- samstave 14y ago
  How does this defen the guys claim "Ill show you how to live well off $10/hr." Every person on HN should realize that they are worth more than $10/hr. Stop defending living in poverty as an exploit of others.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    He wasn't suggesting that you do it; he was suggesting that it is possible.
lotharbot 14y ago
> "Get ... several mortgages and children." > "live a normal life in Silicon Valley with kids" It seems to me this is exactly the point being made. You can live on a lot less money than whatever you currently consider "normal", but not necessarily in your current location or at your current level of consumption. Whatever it costs you to live comfortably in SV with kids, it probably costs me half that to live comfortably in Denver with kids. I know of families living on less than half of what I do in places like Japan, who would consider themselves quite comfortable. If financing your current lifestyle leaves you with no free time to enjoy life, you're a slave to that lifestyle -- whether it's on $5k or $500k a year. If "living in Silicon Valley" is non-negotiable, it's going to take a lot more earning power to get out of that type of "slavery" than if you're willing to live in Belize.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  > it probably costs me half that to live comfortably in Denver with kids. That's a horrible comparison. The difference in potential salaries, potential connections, business opportunities and so on would put make Denver the expensive one IMO (costs half as much as SV to have none of those advantages? wtf!).
  - lotharbot 14y ago
    > "The difference in potential salaries, potential connections, business opportunities and so on would put make Denver the expensive one IMO" If you're one of those near the top of the spectrum, making 25 or more times the median salary or starting up a business that truly blows up, perhaps. In which case you wouldn't be complaining that it's hard to raise kids in SV. If you're an average joe coder, or even fairly above average, you're making 10% less in Denver and you have fewer options for tech companies (but still plenty locally, and some decent remote options). But you can buy a nice house here for well under $200k and live ten minutes from work. For the vast majority of people, it's far less expensive. The point here is not to convince you, personally, to move to Denver. Just to clarify that there's a whole spectrum of places to live at all sorts of prices, with all sorts of advantages and disadvantages. The GGP post implied that "live a normal life in SV" was the only option, which is of course absurd. There are advantages to living in SV, but they do not come without costs.
xtracto 14y ago
Can you please go back to Slashdot? you are polluting an otherwise interesting discussion.
- qu4z-2 14y ago
  That was somewhat uncalled for.
tptacek 14y ago
Sam. Breathe.
nitrogen 14y ago
If something else about life is bothering you, it's probably best not to take it out on us naive 20-somethings. Either way it's clear something about this thread has deeply upset you (happens to all of us), so if it's something deeper going on I wish you luck sorting it out. If not, at the least, I too wish it was possible to live on $10/day and still have some semblance of a family and social life.
- userulluipeste 14y ago
  I met a lot of people probably like samstave, making a lot of uninspired decisions, like drowning themselves in debt and such, then here comes someone telling about $10/day... Those people feel miserably and "deeply upset" of course, especially because there is no easy way out.
  - samstave 14y ago
    I have zero debt. I make well over $100K per year. I just get really riled up by the soapbox statements like "I can show you how to live on $10/day" and stating things like "move out of the bay area." a "Simple move" and "no excuses" This "advice" is ridiculous. It is simply stupid and arrogant for someone to claim that you can live off $10/day.
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    It doesn't even have to take "uninspired" decisions. Simply having other human beings depend on you for their existence is enough to make escaping the system impossible, along with a number of other hurdles like lacking transportation to wherever $10/day is enough.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]