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There is a very simple solution to this if you are in an area where electricity is cheap and the climate is cold. Simply use electrical heaters with a thermosta

by marvin 14y ago

There is a very simple solution to this if you are in an area where electricity is cheap and the climate is cold. Simply use electrical heaters with a thermostat. Using electronic appliances, including light bulbs, increases the temperature and reduces the time your heaters have to run. This is also the reason why low-energy light bulbs are less profitable in certain countries.

bigiain 14y ago
Yep. I've mostly go the other problem though. Here in Sydney Australia, it's reasonably rare for us to need to heat the house - especially right now, in the middle of our summer. Even in the middle of a Sydney winter it's uncommon for us to actively heat the house - we've only got one "space heater" in the house, a little 1000W fan heater that mostly gets used to dry rained-on motorcycle jackets/boots/gloves. Very rarey (perhaps 2 or 3 days per year) we run the aircon in reverse-cycle heating mode. I guess that your comment probably reveals another reason why this idea isn't currently economically feasible - the "richest market" where the pre-conditions for it to work (households with significant amounts of "waste heat generating electronics" running permanently or close to), is surely the USA and the 2nd richest market is probably western Europe. Both regions where for a large part of their population, the climate is cold enough for significant parts of the year for your simple solution to be "good enough". A market the size of Australia (~20million people) probably isn't anything like big enough to get the economy of scale to work. Now my tree-hugger side is even more melancholy...
- spearo77 14y ago
  Michael Mobbs has been at it for a while.. http://sustainablehouse.com.au http://sustainablehouse.com.au Check out "The Plan" for the larger scale objectives.
emiliobumachar 14y ago
I would think using electronic appliances would save heating effort on any closed-loop heating system, electrical or not. Am I missing something? Other than that, great point.
- klodolph 14y ago
  If gas is cheaper per watt than electricity, then you save money by heating with gas and lighting with high-efficiency light bulbs.
  - schiffern 14y ago
    Heat pumps generally beat them all, and you avoid combustion byproducts inside the building envelope.
schiffern 14y ago
Your solution is penny wise and pound foolish. Using heat pumps will save you enormous amounts of energy overall, even though your appliances look superficially worst under that analysis. The economic equivalent would be: You: "Hey Bob, those are expensive fishing trips. Think of the opportunity cost!" Bob: "Thanks, you've saved me a bundle. I'll go quit my job immediately!" (The effect you're citing is real, but the explanation is more basic: at low energy costs, efficient goods have longer payoffs. This happens regardless of what heating method people use.)
- marvin 14y ago
  Yes, this is very obviously true. But there are very good historical reasons why this is the way things have traditionally worked in Norway. First, heat pumps were very uncommon until only a few years ago, since no one needs A/C in this cold climate. A heat pump can have a 10-year payoff with our electricity costs, although this has gotten better in recent years. There is no gas infrastucture. And it makes no sense to switch to high-energy appliances untli you're switched to more efficient heating.

by marvin 14y ago

bigiain 14y ago

Yep. I've mostly go the other problem though. Here in Sydney Australia, it's reasonably rare for us to need to heat the house - especially right now, in the middle of our summer. Even in the middle of a Sydney winter it's uncommon for us to actively heat the house - we've only got one "space heater" in the house, a little 1000W fan heater that mostly gets used to dry rained-on motorcycle jackets/boots/gloves. Very rarey (perhaps 2 or 3 days per year) we run the aircon in reverse-cycle heating mode. I guess that your comment probably reveals another reason why this idea isn't currently economically feasible - the "richest market" where the pre-conditions for it to work (households with significant amounts of "waste heat generating electronics" running permanently or close to), is surely the USA and the 2nd richest market is probably western Europe. Both regions where for a large part of their population, the climate is cold enough for significant parts of the year for your simple solution to be "good enough". A market the size of Australia (~20million people) probably isn't anything like big enough to get the economy of scale to work. Now my tree-hugger side is even more melancholy...

spearo77 14y ago
Michael Mobbs has been at it for a while.. http://sustainablehouse.com.au http://sustainablehouse.com.au Check out "The Plan" for the larger scale objectives.

emiliobumachar 14y ago

I would think using electronic appliances would save heating effort on any closed-loop heating system, electrical or not. Am I missing something? Other than that, great point.

klodolph 14y ago
If gas is cheaper per watt than electricity, then you save money by heating with gas and lighting with high-efficiency light bulbs.
- schiffern 14y ago
  Heat pumps generally beat them all, and you avoid combustion byproducts inside the building envelope.

schiffern 14y ago

Your solution is penny wise and pound foolish. Using heat pumps will save you enormous amounts of energy overall, even though your appliances look superficially worst under that analysis. The economic equivalent would be: You: "Hey Bob, those are expensive fishing trips. Think of the opportunity cost!" Bob: "Thanks, you've saved me a bundle. I'll go quit my job immediately!" (The effect you're citing is real, but the explanation is more basic: at low energy costs, efficient goods have longer payoffs. This happens regardless of what heating method people use.)

marvin 14y ago
Yes, this is very obviously true. But there are very good historical reasons why this is the way things have traditionally worked in Norway. First, heat pumps were very uncommon until only a few years ago, since no one needs A/C in this cold climate. A heat pump can have a 10-year payoff with our electricity costs, although this has gotten better in recent years. There is no gas infrastucture. And it makes no sense to switch to high-energy appliances untli you're switched to more efficient heating.