4 ms·

I especially found the map of europe Year 1 vs 2000 interesting. Hopefully, it won't take another 2k years for the EU to grow back together as a community. Of c

I especially found the map of europe Year 1 vs 2000 interesting. Hopefully, it won't take another 2k years for the EU to grow back together as a community. Of course, there are the intermittent 2k years that have divided us, but if you compare the progress over the last 50 to the previous roughly 2k I think we've done quit well.

nagrom 14y ago
Not sure whether you are pro- or anti-EU with that comment... You are aware that the union in year 1 was effectively a somewhat brutal dictatorship imposed by force where human life was treated as a toy for an elite caste that ruled from afar, right? There was no 'EU community' then. There was the brutal rule of hierarchical violence and fealty to pay to a foreign emperor. Regardless of what you think of the EU, the Roman empire is not something to which anyone should reasonably aspire!
- jfaucett 14y ago
  I'm definately pro EU and also quite aware of the Roman Empire's injustices, I just think its interesting that a map of the current EU member states - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:EU_Member_states_and_Candidate_countries_map.svg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:EU_Member_states_and_Cand..., has a large overlap, minus Turkey and the arabic countries. Which makes me wonder/hope that perhaps they could also one day become member states in a harmonious union. Obviously, this observation only comes from the maps not historical events, which most certianly is one of the main reasons Turkey is not an EU member as of now.
  - nagrom 14y ago
    I don't think it is so much of a surprise. The Roman empire enforced a lot of cultural norms and spread a common religion. The religion, in particular, was responsible for a largely common education and that still exists today! It is therefore no surprise that the member states that share that common education have a lot of political interaction. However, often that political interaction has been warlike and negative and it's not clear that one can peaceably enforce positive interaction between states. The best thing that the EU could do to harmonise relations, in my opinion, would be to encourage an EU-wide educational system and make that education open to other, non-european states too. Take the harmonising parts of that ancient common religion and try to avoid the the mystical and manipulative hierarchies which caused a lot of bloodshed and which will, in my opinion, eventually bring it down.
    - riffraff 14y ago
      I believe you are thinking of the existing Bologna Process[0] which is, at heart, an attempt to build an EU-wide common higher education system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process
      - nagrom 14y ago
        Yes and no. The Bologna Process, as I understand it, is a harmonisation of academic qualifications designed to allow someone with a degree in Italy to be qualified to do a PhD. in the Netherlands, etc. I'm talking more about a FOSS-style curriculum that doesn't necessarily address economic arguments, but acts as a basis for what modern European school children should know and learn. Some common cultural grounding that clearly states an accumulated sum of knowledge and learning techniques that defines what it means to be 'educated'.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  Should be a link to "Life of Brian" here - where Cleese says "What have the Romans every given us? Nothun'!" and a cell member raises his hand. "The Aquaduct?" "Oh yeah, the Aquaduct, yeah, that." And on and on until they have a long list of improvements instituted by the Romans.
  - Jd 14y ago
    That was easy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
  - Androsynth 14y ago
    Its easy for entertainers to make that joke. But history has shown that in general, people prefer independence over technology.
    - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
      Sure, but they have to be alive to appreciate anything. You can make the argument: providing public safety, armed police, clean safe water and medicine, Romans saved far more lives than they ever hurt.
d_theorist 14y ago
This comment exposes the elitist Europhile mindset beautifully. Yes, another Roman Empire to allow a small imperial caste to rule the entire continent is exactly what they are aiming for.
- jfaucett 14y ago
  That's not what I meant to convey at all. The idea is that cultures that have a different history, a history of conflict, blood and war - as one would probably guess just by observing the lines on this map - can come together, work together and overcome their different antagonistic histories, in order to attain peace. If other states were to join, islamic states, such as Turkey, and it were to work, this would be an even more amazing historical event. I'm not saying the EU is without its problems, but I think its going far in moving away from cold-warish pre 21st century nationalistic tendencies that have led to so much disaster in the world.
  - onemorepassword 14y ago
    You realize that the vast majority of that history of conflict, blood and war has been caused by attempts to remove those lines from the map?
  - iuguy 14y ago
    > If other states were to join, islamic states, such as Turkey, and it were to work, this would be an even more amazing historical event. Can you define 'Islamic state'? Turkey is a secular democratic republic. Admittedly one run by religious nutjobs with delusions of grandeur at the moment, but it is technically a secular republic, not an islamic state, and does not identify as such. Also, for Turkey to join the EU, the EU would have to provide an incentive that at the moment does not exist. Turkey has good tariffs and trade agreements with many EU states and having it's own currency.
- skrebbel 14y ago
  Straw man.
- vidarh 14y ago
troels 14y ago
The one thing you're missing, is the USA. Europe, as a cultural whole, should really include USA. In that perspective, the map has actually changed quite a bit since year 1.
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  Never thought of it quite like that - yes, we did expand the Borders a little:-)
onemorepassword 14y ago
Yeah, we really dream of being swallowed up and exploited by a greater empire again, because we haven't had enough of that fun yet in the period between the Roman empire and the 3rd Reich... There's no "back together" because there has never been a together that wasn't under the sword or the gun in the first place. Peace, cooperation and wide open borders within the EU, great. The EU as the next empire, no thanks. If anything, the ideal future map of Europe has more borders as communities peacefully regain their autonomy and independence.
- iuguy 14y ago
  Not to mention the former Soviet members of the EU, some of whom have had the opportunity to be swallowed up by other empires several times now.

nagrom 14y ago

Not sure whether you are pro- or anti-EU with that comment... You are aware that the union in year 1 was effectively a somewhat brutal dictatorship imposed by force where human life was treated as a toy for an elite caste that ruled from afar, right? There was no 'EU community' then. There was the brutal rule of hierarchical violence and fealty to pay to a foreign emperor. Regardless of what you think of the EU, the Roman empire is not something to which anyone should reasonably aspire!

jfaucett 14y ago
I'm definately pro EU and also quite aware of the Roman Empire's injustices, I just think its interesting that a map of the current EU member states - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:EU_Member_states_and_Candidate_countries_map.svg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:EU_Member_states_and_Cand..., has a large overlap, minus Turkey and the arabic countries. Which makes me wonder/hope that perhaps they could also one day become member states in a harmonious union. Obviously, this observation only comes from the maps not historical events, which most certianly is one of the main reasons Turkey is not an EU member as of now.
- nagrom 14y ago
  I don't think it is so much of a surprise. The Roman empire enforced a lot of cultural norms and spread a common religion. The religion, in particular, was responsible for a largely common education and that still exists today! It is therefore no surprise that the member states that share that common education have a lot of political interaction. However, often that political interaction has been warlike and negative and it's not clear that one can peaceably enforce positive interaction between states. The best thing that the EU could do to harmonise relations, in my opinion, would be to encourage an EU-wide educational system and make that education open to other, non-european states too. Take the harmonising parts of that ancient common religion and try to avoid the the mystical and manipulative hierarchies which caused a lot of bloodshed and which will, in my opinion, eventually bring it down.
  - riffraff 14y ago
    I believe you are thinking of the existing Bologna Process[0] which is, at heart, an attempt to build an EU-wide common higher education system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process
    - nagrom 14y ago
      Yes and no. The Bologna Process, as I understand it, is a harmonisation of academic qualifications designed to allow someone with a degree in Italy to be qualified to do a PhD. in the Netherlands, etc. I'm talking more about a FOSS-style curriculum that doesn't necessarily address economic arguments, but acts as a basis for what modern European school children should know and learn. Some common cultural grounding that clearly states an accumulated sum of knowledge and learning techniques that defines what it means to be 'educated'.
JoeAltmaier 14y ago
Should be a link to "Life of Brian" here - where Cleese says "What have the Romans every given us? Nothun'!" and a cell member raises his hand. "The Aquaduct?" "Oh yeah, the Aquaduct, yeah, that." And on and on until they have a long list of improvements instituted by the Romans.
- Jd 14y ago
  That was easy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
- Androsynth 14y ago
  Its easy for entertainers to make that joke. But history has shown that in general, people prefer independence over technology.
  - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
    Sure, but they have to be alive to appreciate anything. You can make the argument: providing public safety, armed police, clean safe water and medicine, Romans saved far more lives than they ever hurt.

d_theorist 14y ago

This comment exposes the elitist Europhile mindset beautifully. Yes, another Roman Empire to allow a small imperial caste to rule the entire continent is exactly what they are aiming for.

jfaucett 14y ago
That's not what I meant to convey at all. The idea is that cultures that have a different history, a history of conflict, blood and war - as one would probably guess just by observing the lines on this map - can come together, work together and overcome their different antagonistic histories, in order to attain peace. If other states were to join, islamic states, such as Turkey, and it were to work, this would be an even more amazing historical event. I'm not saying the EU is without its problems, but I think its going far in moving away from cold-warish pre 21st century nationalistic tendencies that have led to so much disaster in the world.
- onemorepassword 14y ago
  You realize that the vast majority of that history of conflict, blood and war has been caused by attempts to remove those lines from the map?
- iuguy 14y ago
  > If other states were to join, islamic states, such as Turkey, and it were to work, this would be an even more amazing historical event. Can you define 'Islamic state'? Turkey is a secular democratic republic. Admittedly one run by religious nutjobs with delusions of grandeur at the moment, but it is technically a secular republic, not an islamic state, and does not identify as such. Also, for Turkey to join the EU, the EU would have to provide an incentive that at the moment does not exist. Turkey has good tariffs and trade agreements with many EU states and having it's own currency.
skrebbel 14y ago
Straw man.
vidarh 14y ago

troels 14y ago

The one thing you're missing, is the USA. Europe, as a cultural whole, should really include USA. In that perspective, the map has actually changed quite a bit since year 1.

lifeisstillgood 14y ago
Never thought of it quite like that - yes, we did expand the Borders a little:-)

onemorepassword 14y ago

Yeah, we really dream of being swallowed up and exploited by a greater empire again, because we haven't had enough of that fun yet in the period between the Roman empire and the 3rd Reich... There's no "back together" because there has never been a together that wasn't under the sword or the gun in the first place. Peace, cooperation and wide open borders within the EU, great. The EU as the next empire, no thanks. If anything, the ideal future map of Europe has more borders as communities peacefully regain their autonomy and independence.

iuguy 14y ago
Not to mention the former Soviet members of the EU, some of whom have had the opportunity to be swallowed up by other empires several times now.