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I've read some of those books cover to cover (Art of War, the Prince) & other's I've glazed over because they were, well, boring & laborious & I don't believe a

by derrida 14y ago

I've read some of those books cover to cover (Art of War, the Prince) & other's I've glazed over because they were, well, boring & laborious & I don't believe anybody should be recommending them as things to read for enjoyment (Origin of the Species or The Bible, for instance). So here's my list of 8 for things that you'll probably never finish, but extract huge value from anyway. -Richard Feynman Lectures on Physics - religion -Donald Knuth Art of Computer Programming - I can fuck around with manuals, other text books, but when I come to read the explanation of a particular concept in TAOCP, I always realise "this is the path of least resistance to understanding X" & then that scares me, because there is so much to know & it's really hard to understand anything well. -William James The Varieties of Religious Experience For those that deny the possibility of spiritual experience within a naturalistic world view. A lot of atheism that is public today misses empathy with religious experience. -Martin Gardner's articles -Douglas Hofstadter - Godel, Escher, Bach & Le Ton Beau De Marot - for those that enjoy spending all day thinking about logic & languages (hello programmers) these two books are romantic pulp - you know you shouldn't be reading them, they are so hopelessly impractical, lofty & philosophical. -Friedrich Nietzsche - The Gay Science - because it will infuriate people who are adverse to the sort of thinking you see in the humanities and they deserve to be enraged by this book. If you have an ethical system, think you can tell good from bad, right from wrong, read this book. Acid for the normative. - C.S.Peirce's notebooks - This hasn't been published in its completeness but deserves to be (I just hope saying this here doesn't mean I'll never be able to find a copy of some of his notes again). Another tragic of history that has been looked over in much the same manner as Tesla. Peirce figured out electrical gates could be used to implement boolean logic 50 years before Shannon, axiomatised the natural numbers before Peano, made the distinction of cardinal and ordinal before Cantor & nobody knows who he fucking was because he was a chemist. What else is in his books that we haven't managed to recognise the significance of yet?

kriro 14y ago
Thanks for suggesting that Peirce book. Interesting man indeed, ordered the book. I can +1 GEB the stories sections are just brilliant (entire content is great of course)
phaus 14y ago
For the most part, I like your list better, but I do think everyone should read the works of Thomas Paine. In particular, I think that every single American should have to read Common Sense first in high school, and then annually as a part of registration process for voting (Along with the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.) I also happen to think that the Age of Reason is one of the most brilliant pieces of writing the world has ever seen.
- cma 14y ago
  Don't forget Agrarian Justice.. really short, really insightful.
martinced 14y ago
"For those that deny the possibility of spiritual experience within a naturalistic world view. A lot of atheism that is public today misses empathy with religious experience." Aldous Huxley, "The doors of perception". Warning: it's debunking the experience. Just as modern science starts to explain (and reproduce) why/how people are seeing "the light at the end of a dark tunnel" when they have near-death experience. Let say it puts many things into perspective. Btw I'm not an atheist, I'm more of a militant agnostic in the: "I don't know, and you don't either" style ; ) Regarding atheists lacking empathy: for centuries atheists have been tracked down and exterminated and there are still religious people, today, calling them atheists "disciples of Satan" and calling for their extermination. So at least give them some credit if they lack "empathy" with those that have relentlessly been purchasing them.
- unalone 14y ago
  > Regarding atheists lacking empathy: for centuries atheists have been tracked down and exterminated and there are still religious people, today, calling them atheists "disciples of Satan" and calling for their extermination. > So at least give them some credit if they lack "empathy" with those that have relentlessly been purchasing them. For me, lack of empathy stems always from ignorance and a lack of understanding: it is literally when we look at somebody else and remain unaware that their life, their choices, their feelings, are exactly equally human to our own. For a long, long time, it was assumed that God was the only way to reach empathy or grace, and that atheists were directly rejecting humanity's only means of salvation. That was a gross failure on the part of the religious. Most religions teach humility and doubt as the fundamental values of humanity (and damn are those good values), so it's always funny when religious people seem incapable of doubting their own virtue. So yeah. Atheistic criticisms of religious people come from a logical place. But I think what critics of the anti-theist movements point out is that to deny religion any value, to reduce it to something as simple as "invisible sky people" and "an excuse not to think for yourself" and then to assume that all religious people are brainwashed morons, is itself a gross misunderstanding of the origins of faith, of how deep a religion's teachings can go, of the purpose of theology in the first place. It's well-known that many brilliant scientists and mathematicians in history were religious. Coincidence? Accident of religion being dominant at the times? Well, no; there have always been atheists, and a surprising number of them too if you've only heard modern rhetoric. Rather, religion (and theology) is the practice of understanding our place within something vast and enormous and, yes, uncaring. We are specks of dust within specks of dust – does this mean our lives have no value? Does this mean there is no such thing as morality, as kindness, as working at something greater? Every religion values an individual as important, tells you that yes, you do matter, even if only to yourself and your extended community, and then it tries to help you understand what it means that you're so small in such a large, chaotic world. In researching the project I've been working on for the past two years, I found that at some point simply studying the subject matter directly wasn't yielding me very good results. I turned to a number of other fields to help me understand my material, but theological books were, surprisingly to me, among the most helpful. They spoke directly of the ways in which we relate to each other, and the reasons why our connecting to one another is more important when the world is so vast and enormous. It was a way of looking at the world that not even philosophers address quite so directly. So for that, I am incredibly grateful. Plenty of religious people are hells of confused about what they believe. There's a lot of shit out there masquerading as holy. But the good parts of religion still remain, and people who find they need religion in their lives, or that they do believe in some kind of God, are not weak, are not fools. Some of the smartest people I know are religious, and their religion makes them more insightful. And seeing as you can hate religious ignorance or bigotry without hating religion as an institution, there's no reason to conflate the one with the other. Most of the atheists I know who truly think religion has no purpose whatsoever simply don't understand religion, and know they don't understand it, and are proud of not understanding it. That's a stupid way to be, and no amount of "atheists are persecuted" excuses such a lack of empathy.
fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
The Bible, boring? I mean, it drones on with boring passages sometimes, but the stories are far from boring. I'd say terrifying, sickening, tragic at times. I'll bump your Feynman Lectures (watch the videos), and add everything else (his books). Even laypersons can understand him. Feynman wrote some lectures on computation too which has some gems in it. http://books.google.com/books/about/Feynman_Lectures_On_Computation.html?id=HAitoCyzAXIC http://books.google.com/books/about/Feynman_Lectures_On_Comp... I will try your William James The Varieties of Religious Experience. I feel it is one of the problems that works against a wider adoption or acceptance of atheism that there is no "community" I keep trying to finish Pepy's Diary, but so far I've failed. http://www.pepysdiary.com/ http://www.pepysdiary.com/ With regard to The Prince, I was advised that there are many translations and most are not done well. YMMV. Unfortunately, I can't remember which one my philosopher friend recommended.
- Lambdanaut 14y ago
  The "x begat y, and y begat z" chronologies that go on for hundreds of years can get pretty tedious. The sub-books that involve lists of Jewish laws can be a little dull too, though some of the laws I'll admit are pretty funny.
- pavel_lishin 14y ago
  > The Bible, boring? I mean, it drones on with boring passages sometimes, but the stories are far from boring. I'd say terrifying, sickening, tragic at times. It's like reading a Shakespearean play for me. The stories might be interesting, but a lot of the time it's hard to understand what is actually going on, and what's going through the actors' heads.
- derrida 14y ago
  Hey, It's a week later, I think I will give the KJV bible a try again sometime. Have you gotten onto The Varieties of Religious Experience yet? Do you think I was warranted to recommend it to the audience I did?
gyardley 14y ago
I wouldn't recommend the King James Version of the Bible for its religious content, not being a Christian and all, but it's essential for understanding half the allusions of English literature. If you haven't, try it. The 1769 Authorized Version (what you'll surely get if you just buy a KJV Bible) is very readable, the language is beautiful (and, in my opinion, enjoyable) and you'll appreciate your books much more.
- cma 14y ago
  If you are going to read it take note of the various mistranslations it makes. 'Hell' isn't actually a concept in the old testament, but the KJV engages in Whig History and uses it throughout. Even the first words of the Bible "In the beginning" are a mistranslation (though that mistranslation occurred thousands of years before the KJV and was a result of written Hebrew omitting vowels or something).
  - gyardley 14y ago
    Sure, the first verse of my translated study Torah is 'When God was about to create heaven and earth...' This corrected interpretation's not particularly new, either - it's based on a commentary from an 11th century rabbi. However, like it or not, all of the KJV's mistranslations are much more influential than the original - and most influential of all is its phrasing and choice of vocabulary. I suppose what you focus on depends on what you want to get from it. If you're interested in understanding how the Bible's influenced our language and literature, I'd go KJV all the way. If you want to grapple with spiritual and theological issues, that's a different story.
    - cma 14y ago
      I agree; I just think it is important when considering why e.g. Jewish people aren't leaping to accept Jesus--the hellfire that say, Baptists, claim he is going to save them from, isn't part of their beliefs. Many Christians are confused on this.
- derrida 14y ago
  Sure, I will give it a go! I had the Good News bible around when I was a child and haven't revisited it for a few years.
rdouble 14y ago
Gulliver's Travels is boring and laborious, but TAOCP, William James, GEB, and axiomatised the natural numbers before Peano, made the distinction of cardinal and ordinal before Cantor ?

by derrida 14y ago

kriro 14y ago

Thanks for suggesting that Peirce book. Interesting man indeed, ordered the book. I can +1 GEB the stories sections are just brilliant (entire content is great of course)

phaus 14y ago

For the most part, I like your list better, but I do think everyone should read the works of Thomas Paine. In particular, I think that every single American should have to read Common Sense first in high school, and then annually as a part of registration process for voting (Along with the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.) I also happen to think that the Age of Reason is one of the most brilliant pieces of writing the world has ever seen.

cma 14y ago
Don't forget Agrarian Justice.. really short, really insightful.

martinced 14y ago

"For those that deny the possibility of spiritual experience within a naturalistic world view. A lot of atheism that is public today misses empathy with religious experience." Aldous Huxley, "The doors of perception". Warning: it's debunking the experience. Just as modern science starts to explain (and reproduce) why/how people are seeing "the light at the end of a dark tunnel" when they have near-death experience. Let say it puts many things into perspective. Btw I'm not an atheist, I'm more of a militant agnostic in the: "I don't know, and you don't either" style ; ) Regarding atheists lacking empathy: for centuries atheists have been tracked down and exterminated and there are still religious people, today, calling them atheists "disciples of Satan" and calling for their extermination. So at least give them some credit if they lack "empathy" with those that have relentlessly been purchasing them.

unalone 14y ago
> Regarding atheists lacking empathy: for centuries atheists have been tracked down and exterminated and there are still religious people, today, calling them atheists "disciples of Satan" and calling for their extermination. > So at least give them some credit if they lack "empathy" with those that have relentlessly been purchasing them. For me, lack of empathy stems always from ignorance and a lack of understanding: it is literally when we look at somebody else and remain unaware that their life, their choices, their feelings, are exactly equally human to our own. For a long, long time, it was assumed that God was the only way to reach empathy or grace, and that atheists were directly rejecting humanity's only means of salvation. That was a gross failure on the part of the religious. Most religions teach humility and doubt as the fundamental values of humanity (and damn are those good values), so it's always funny when religious people seem incapable of doubting their own virtue. So yeah. Atheistic criticisms of religious people come from a logical place. But I think what critics of the anti-theist movements point out is that to deny religion any value, to reduce it to something as simple as "invisible sky people" and "an excuse not to think for yourself" and then to assume that all religious people are brainwashed morons, is itself a gross misunderstanding of the origins of faith, of how deep a religion's teachings can go, of the purpose of theology in the first place. It's well-known that many brilliant scientists and mathematicians in history were religious. Coincidence? Accident of religion being dominant at the times? Well, no; there have always been atheists, and a surprising number of them too if you've only heard modern rhetoric. Rather, religion (and theology) is the practice of understanding our place within something vast and enormous and, yes, uncaring. We are specks of dust within specks of dust – does this mean our lives have no value? Does this mean there is no such thing as morality, as kindness, as working at something greater? Every religion values an individual as important, tells you that yes, you do matter, even if only to yourself and your extended community, and then it tries to help you understand what it means that you're so small in such a large, chaotic world. In researching the project I've been working on for the past two years, I found that at some point simply studying the subject matter directly wasn't yielding me very good results. I turned to a number of other fields to help me understand my material, but theological books were, surprisingly to me, among the most helpful. They spoke directly of the ways in which we relate to each other, and the reasons why our connecting to one another is more important when the world is so vast and enormous. It was a way of looking at the world that not even philosophers address quite so directly. So for that, I am incredibly grateful. Plenty of religious people are hells of confused about what they believe. There's a lot of shit out there masquerading as holy. But the good parts of religion still remain, and people who find they need religion in their lives, or that they do believe in some kind of God, are not weak, are not fools. Some of the smartest people I know are religious, and their religion makes them more insightful. And seeing as you can hate religious ignorance or bigotry without hating religion as an institution, there's no reason to conflate the one with the other. Most of the atheists I know who truly think religion has no purpose whatsoever simply don't understand religion, and know they don't understand it, and are proud of not understanding it. That's a stupid way to be, and no amount of "atheists are persecuted" excuses such a lack of empathy.

fnordfnordfnord 14y ago

The Bible, boring? I mean, it drones on with boring passages sometimes, but the stories are far from boring. I'd say terrifying, sickening, tragic at times. I'll bump your Feynman Lectures (watch the videos), and add everything else (his books). Even laypersons can understand him. Feynman wrote some lectures on computation too which has some gems in it. http://books.google.com/books/about/Feynman_Lectures_On_Computation.html?id=HAitoCyzAXIC http://books.google.com/books/about/Feynman_Lectures_On_Comp... I will try your William James The Varieties of Religious Experience. I feel it is one of the problems that works against a wider adoption or acceptance of atheism that there is no "community" I keep trying to finish Pepy's Diary, but so far I've failed. http://www.pepysdiary.com/ http://www.pepysdiary.com/ With regard to The Prince, I was advised that there are many translations and most are not done well. YMMV. Unfortunately, I can't remember which one my philosopher friend recommended.

Lambdanaut 14y ago
The "x begat y, and y begat z" chronologies that go on for hundreds of years can get pretty tedious. The sub-books that involve lists of Jewish laws can be a little dull too, though some of the laws I'll admit are pretty funny.
pavel_lishin 14y ago
> The Bible, boring? I mean, it drones on with boring passages sometimes, but the stories are far from boring. I'd say terrifying, sickening, tragic at times. It's like reading a Shakespearean play for me. The stories might be interesting, but a lot of the time it's hard to understand what is actually going on, and what's going through the actors' heads.
derrida 14y ago
Hey, It's a week later, I think I will give the KJV bible a try again sometime. Have you gotten onto The Varieties of Religious Experience yet? Do you think I was warranted to recommend it to the audience I did?

gyardley 14y ago

I wouldn't recommend the King James Version of the Bible for its religious content, not being a Christian and all, but it's essential for understanding half the allusions of English literature. If you haven't, try it. The 1769 Authorized Version (what you'll surely get if you just buy a KJV Bible) is very readable, the language is beautiful (and, in my opinion, enjoyable) and you'll appreciate your books much more.

cma 14y ago
If you are going to read it take note of the various mistranslations it makes. 'Hell' isn't actually a concept in the old testament, but the KJV engages in Whig History and uses it throughout. Even the first words of the Bible "In the beginning" are a mistranslation (though that mistranslation occurred thousands of years before the KJV and was a result of written Hebrew omitting vowels or something).
- gyardley 14y ago
  Sure, the first verse of my translated study Torah is 'When God was about to create heaven and earth...' This corrected interpretation's not particularly new, either - it's based on a commentary from an 11th century rabbi. However, like it or not, all of the KJV's mistranslations are much more influential than the original - and most influential of all is its phrasing and choice of vocabulary. I suppose what you focus on depends on what you want to get from it. If you're interested in understanding how the Bible's influenced our language and literature, I'd go KJV all the way. If you want to grapple with spiritual and theological issues, that's a different story.
  - cma 14y ago
    I agree; I just think it is important when considering why e.g. Jewish people aren't leaping to accept Jesus--the hellfire that say, Baptists, claim he is going to save them from, isn't part of their beliefs. Many Christians are confused on this.
derrida 14y ago
Sure, I will give it a go! I had the Good News bible around when I was a child and haven't revisited it for a few years.

rdouble 14y ago

Gulliver's Travels is boring and laborious, but TAOCP, William James, GEB, and axiomatised the natural numbers before Peano, made the distinction of cardinal and ordinal before Cantor ?