6 ms·

Meta-discussion blending with topical discussion here, I'd be interested to know what the moderation burden on HN is. HN has maintained quality up to this scale

by nwinter 18y ago

Meta-discussion blending with topical discussion here, I'd be interested to know what the moderation burden on HN is. HN has maintained quality up to this scale and may be able to prevent additional growth, but what's the cost?

brandnewlow 18y ago
PG gives a lot of credit to the editors for keeping HN clean. But let's be honest, people behave here because they don't want to burn their bridge with PG. He's said himself that he created HN in part to get a taste of what YCombinator applicants are like before they apply. This whole site is one big, ongoing public job interview. That's a big part of what keeps people in line.
- alecco 18y ago
  I think it's growing past that. :)
- buss 18y ago
  I've always felt the same about HN. I've behaved a particular way on HN, though not much different than I behave elsewhere. My suspicion is that most people on HN also severely limit what and how much they say because they're worried about pg getting a negative image of them. This does help keep the community on topic and very civil, so maybe that's ok.
- weaksauce 18y ago
  I don't think that that is quite accurate. I doubt that the majority of people here are here for the ycombinator seed money. I come here because it is the best aggregation of topics that are interesting to my tastes. Will I apply for ycombinator seed money? Probably not.
  - brandnewlow 18y ago
    This is probably true, though it's impossible to prove without data. My point was that there's an extra incentive for good behavior here that you don't find at many other online communities. If you kick butt on HN, assemble a team that follows PG's rules and pitch him a great idea for a startup, he might give you $15k and open a lot of doors for you. That setup just doesn't exist on many other community sites, perhaps any, and I think it must be taken into account when we marvel at how great this place is.
  - unalone 18y ago
    Even if you're not applying to YC (though quite a lot of people here are), the fact remains that PG is somebody who's fairly well-known in the hacker community, and he's very active here (compare that to how the heads of some other social sites don't directly get involved on their sites as much). People will always be more wary of making an ass of themselves in front of somebody with a reputation than they will be of doing the same in front of anonymous strangers. In fact, on Hacker News it's even more so a matter of known people, since there are a lot of well-known people who come on here and say stuff. I know one of the big Delicious people do, because my first month here I got rebuked by him for insulting Delicious. There are people from most of the major YC companies, along with guys from 37signals, Joel Spolsky, Jason Calcanis, and more - and when there's a site frequented by a lot of people who have reputations, suddenly spouting stupid mouth noise seems a lot more foolhardy. (I find that whenever somebody whose web site I use gets annoyed at something that I say here, it absolutely makes me at least reconsider what I said. I judge people by the awesome things they make, so this is a community that has a lot of people that I respect a ton, and it encourages me to remain civil and reasonable here.)
    - njharman 18y ago
      Not everyone here is a fame worshiping whore, me for instance. I give a rats ass who's been blessed as a "known people" by the inbred circle jerk of techies esp startup techies. In fact if you are "famous" you have to work esp hard to impress me otherwise I assume your just riding the fanboi wave. The reason I "behave" here (not this post obviously, cause your smug elitist attitude pissed me the fuck off) unlike on say reddit.com is because that is what the community here wants and expects. If I'm not civil, on-topic, serious, unfunny, have proper grammar/spelling, don't know the logical fallacies or false arguments, I'll be voted down to oblivion. I would be unappreciated, unwanted, and unwelcomed. Moreover people here are smart/mature enough not to fall for trolls and griefers so there's no fun to be had there. Eventually, I'd get bored and wonder off. p.s. pg gives me money, I got a website with unpronounceable domain, gradients, ajaxy lightboxes, everything!
      - unalone 18y ago
        I've got news for you: I am a smug elitist. I judge every person I meet and I usually find myself more interested in the things I don't like than about the things I do like. Some people call that elitism: most people I get along with call it taste. It's something that's a necessity when you're a writer or a designer. It lets you make things that don't suck. It's not about being a fame worshipping whore (and, for the record, your using a phrase like that is exactly the sort of thing that leads to my judging you as a bit of a jackass yourself). It's about having a respect for the people in the world who have good ideas and execute them. There's only one thing I really, really respect in the world, and that's the ability to get things done. So when the guy on Delicious responded to me, my reaction wasn't "Oh man! I got Delicious'd!" It was kind of an awe that I was talking to the guy who'd created the first big social bookmarking site. I mean, this is something my classmates use. I had a class that taught use of Delicious. Meanwhile, here was the guy who made it, responding to the opinions that I'd stated. That's pretty awesome. And I don't go out and advertise it, and I don't try to get publicity out of talking to people like that. I do it because, when all is said and done, these are the people that matter to me. Some of the guys here create the online world in which I dwell. There are Facebook employees and Google employees, there are guys with ties to Vimeo and Flickr and Tumblr and Last.fm, and I'm not in awe of them, I respect them. Is that unhealthy? I don't give a shit about fame. I hate fameballers. I insult people who are well-known and well-liked if they're full of themselves. But I do the same in reverse to people I don't know. Fame isn't indicative of good or great either way, so I opt to ignore it. What I was saying, which you apparently find elitist, is that I'm much more affected when it's somebody who's done something, regardless of whether or not I've heard of them beforehand. I feel that having created something that I judge to be good entitles you to more of my time than I'd give somebody completely at random, and that means more respect. So does that make me a whore? Am I a smug elitist because I think the people here are more worth talking to than the users on Digg? (Also, just to be certain: you're the njharman of Storymash, right?)
- trezor 18y ago
  people behave here because they don't want to burn their bridge with PG. ... This whole site is one big, ongoing public job interview. This is probably not true for the majority of people posting here. I suspect quite a lot of users came here from reddit when that site went the way of digg and 4chan and to them pg is just another handle on the site. Also: Believe it or not, but I had never heard of Paul Graham before coming to this site.
  - radu_floricica 18y ago
    pg is part of why the active moderators behave the way they do. The effect ripples to all users, and creates a (planned) broken window effect. I was surprised when a few of my comments were downmodded just because they had a "reddit style". But I got the message - this is not reddit. I suspect most newcomers have the same experience, and later themselves help set the tone.

by nwinter 18y ago

brandnewlow 18y ago

PG gives a lot of credit to the editors for keeping HN clean. But let's be honest, people behave here because they don't want to burn their bridge with PG. He's said himself that he created HN in part to get a taste of what YCombinator applicants are like before they apply. This whole site is one big, ongoing public job interview. That's a big part of what keeps people in line.

alecco 18y ago
I think it's growing past that. :)
buss 18y ago
I've always felt the same about HN. I've behaved a particular way on HN, though not much different than I behave elsewhere. My suspicion is that most people on HN also severely limit what and how much they say because they're worried about pg getting a negative image of them. This does help keep the community on topic and very civil, so maybe that's ok.
weaksauce 18y ago
I don't think that that is quite accurate. I doubt that the majority of people here are here for the ycombinator seed money. I come here because it is the best aggregation of topics that are interesting to my tastes. Will I apply for ycombinator seed money? Probably not.
- brandnewlow 18y ago
  This is probably true, though it's impossible to prove without data. My point was that there's an extra incentive for good behavior here that you don't find at many other online communities. If you kick butt on HN, assemble a team that follows PG's rules and pitch him a great idea for a startup, he might give you $15k and open a lot of doors for you. That setup just doesn't exist on many other community sites, perhaps any, and I think it must be taken into account when we marvel at how great this place is.
- unalone 18y ago
  Even if you're not applying to YC (though quite a lot of people here are), the fact remains that PG is somebody who's fairly well-known in the hacker community, and he's very active here (compare that to how the heads of some other social sites don't directly get involved on their sites as much). People will always be more wary of making an ass of themselves in front of somebody with a reputation than they will be of doing the same in front of anonymous strangers. In fact, on Hacker News it's even more so a matter of known people, since there are a lot of well-known people who come on here and say stuff. I know one of the big Delicious people do, because my first month here I got rebuked by him for insulting Delicious. There are people from most of the major YC companies, along with guys from 37signals, Joel Spolsky, Jason Calcanis, and more - and when there's a site frequented by a lot of people who have reputations, suddenly spouting stupid mouth noise seems a lot more foolhardy. (I find that whenever somebody whose web site I use gets annoyed at something that I say here, it absolutely makes me at least reconsider what I said. I judge people by the awesome things they make, so this is a community that has a lot of people that I respect a ton, and it encourages me to remain civil and reasonable here.)
  - njharman 18y ago
    Not everyone here is a fame worshiping whore, me for instance. I give a rats ass who's been blessed as a "known people" by the inbred circle jerk of techies esp startup techies. In fact if you are "famous" you have to work esp hard to impress me otherwise I assume your just riding the fanboi wave. The reason I "behave" here (not this post obviously, cause your smug elitist attitude pissed me the fuck off) unlike on say reddit.com is because that is what the community here wants and expects. If I'm not civil, on-topic, serious, unfunny, have proper grammar/spelling, don't know the logical fallacies or false arguments, I'll be voted down to oblivion. I would be unappreciated, unwanted, and unwelcomed. Moreover people here are smart/mature enough not to fall for trolls and griefers so there's no fun to be had there. Eventually, I'd get bored and wonder off. p.s. pg gives me money, I got a website with unpronounceable domain, gradients, ajaxy lightboxes, everything!
    - unalone 18y ago
      I've got news for you: I am a smug elitist. I judge every person I meet and I usually find myself more interested in the things I don't like than about the things I do like. Some people call that elitism: most people I get along with call it taste. It's something that's a necessity when you're a writer or a designer. It lets you make things that don't suck. It's not about being a fame worshipping whore (and, for the record, your using a phrase like that is exactly the sort of thing that leads to my judging you as a bit of a jackass yourself). It's about having a respect for the people in the world who have good ideas and execute them. There's only one thing I really, really respect in the world, and that's the ability to get things done. So when the guy on Delicious responded to me, my reaction wasn't "Oh man! I got Delicious'd!" It was kind of an awe that I was talking to the guy who'd created the first big social bookmarking site. I mean, this is something my classmates use. I had a class that taught use of Delicious. Meanwhile, here was the guy who made it, responding to the opinions that I'd stated. That's pretty awesome. And I don't go out and advertise it, and I don't try to get publicity out of talking to people like that. I do it because, when all is said and done, these are the people that matter to me. Some of the guys here create the online world in which I dwell. There are Facebook employees and Google employees, there are guys with ties to Vimeo and Flickr and Tumblr and Last.fm, and I'm not in awe of them, I respect them. Is that unhealthy? I don't give a shit about fame. I hate fameballers. I insult people who are well-known and well-liked if they're full of themselves. But I do the same in reverse to people I don't know. Fame isn't indicative of good or great either way, so I opt to ignore it. What I was saying, which you apparently find elitist, is that I'm much more affected when it's somebody who's done something, regardless of whether or not I've heard of them beforehand. I feel that having created something that I judge to be good entitles you to more of my time than I'd give somebody completely at random, and that means more respect. So does that make me a whore? Am I a smug elitist because I think the people here are more worth talking to than the users on Digg? (Also, just to be certain: you're the njharman of Storymash, right?)
trezor 18y ago
people behave here because they don't want to burn their bridge with PG. ... This whole site is one big, ongoing public job interview. This is probably not true for the majority of people posting here. I suspect quite a lot of users came here from reddit when that site went the way of digg and 4chan and to them pg is just another handle on the site. Also: Believe it or not, but I had never heard of Paul Graham before coming to this site.
- radu_floricica 18y ago
  pg is part of why the active moderators behave the way they do. The effect ripples to all users, and creates a (planned) broken window effect. I was surprised when a few of my comments were downmodded just because they had a "reddit style". But I got the message - this is not reddit. I suspect most newcomers have the same experience, and later themselves help set the tone.