4 ms·

It's not about poverty and greed. There is a large social support system in european countries. It's not about being denied citizen status - most of the people

by guylhem 14y ago

It's not about poverty and greed. There is a large social support system in european countries. It's not about being denied citizen status - most of the people who get themselves in trouble have been born in France, and by jus sanguinis are french citizen with valid IDs and passport all. It's not even about 'race' - many people from visible minorities, in mainland France and mostly in oversea french departments are quite happy about who they are and how they live, and their culture. There is something else- more pervasive. It's hard to express. The best analysis I have is people like to classify themselves and others. For some reason, many people - especially in France - want to self identify as 'not the same as the local people' if given the chance, and this is reinforced by how most people see them and judge them. I know about diversity - hell, I'm only partially french myself - I could want to do that. Luck or fate didn't make me do that - I do not classify myself as anything. But I notice people are sorting themselves like booleans - 'french' or 'not', regardless of any other variable such as money, origins or citizenship status. Even people I've known for a long time and who would have no reason to. And I've seen the same thing happening in the neighbouring coutries. It is not like the US - where for some reason, the heavy majority people born in the US from different countries and background become proud of being associated with the country and claim themselves as americans, and do not hate the other - at least not too much. Not as much as I've seen in Europe - replace 'french' / 'not french' and it seems to work the same way. I currently live in a french oversea departement, where I'm the visible minority. >90% of the population is african american, but for some reason, it all goes well, there are not major trouble. People are proud of themselves and do not self classify as anything. There is a strong unemployment and poverty. There are factual reasons why, according to the theories I had (similar to yours: poverty, greed) there should be some serious trouble. It's no paradise, but yet it goes well, there is a kind of unity. So I don't believe it is just about social issues. It's as if the "homogeneity" played a positive role - as in, people can relate to eachother and don't feel threatned by eachother, a kind of trust in the social contract, enforced by this homogeneity, a positive reinforcement. I'm not sure this is the right explanation. I'm still trying to understand - if only for my own good! Something very different is happening in Europe at the moment. It's a bit scary. I could be wrong, but I sincerely believe something bad is going to happen there - clans are forming, clans of people who hate eachother. I do not want to take side, or to be classified on any side at all. The reasonable way is not being there. And BTW You're right, banning weapons do not work. People with enough hate will find clever ways around that - boxcutters or anything will do.

dalke 14y ago
I'm talking about poverty and greed in the US. Poverty helps lead to petty crime (mugging and home robberies). Greed helps lead to the murders I mentioned (in Miami in the early 1980s, mostly due to the illegal drug trade). In any case, I concur with smcl. You are incorrectly extrapolating your regional attitudes based on French culture to the entire continent. It does not much apply to Sweden, where I live, nor to what I understand about Norway and likely the other Nordic countries. "People like to classify themselves and others". Yes. The US author Vonnegut even termed the phrase "granfalloon" for "a group of people who imagine they have a connection that does not really exist." This includes football fans, who self-identify, say, as Man U fans. "Homogeneity" is different than "relate to each other and don't feel threatned by each other." Some of the bitterest rivals can be between different members of the same family. While Switzerland is surely an example of a successful non-homogenous country in Europe. If that's the case, then why not argue that the ability to relate to each other and not feel threatened is the key? Homogeneity seems like a false and bland goal.
- guylhem 14y ago
  (Great example with soccer fans!) Homogeneity is just a proxy - but if people can better relate to eachother if they look the same and/or believe in the same things, maybe it's a valuable proxy? But you're right, the ability to relate to eachother is more important in the end - and some countries do better on this, even with less homogeneity. I'd call that the "social contract" - I don't know if there is a better way to understand it.

by guylhem 14y ago

dalke 14y ago

I'm talking about poverty and greed in the US. Poverty helps lead to petty crime (mugging and home robberies). Greed helps lead to the murders I mentioned (in Miami in the early 1980s, mostly due to the illegal drug trade). In any case, I concur with smcl. You are incorrectly extrapolating your regional attitudes based on French culture to the entire continent. It does not much apply to Sweden, where I live, nor to what I understand about Norway and likely the other Nordic countries. "People like to classify themselves and others". Yes. The US author Vonnegut even termed the phrase "granfalloon" for "a group of people who imagine they have a connection that does not really exist." This includes football fans, who self-identify, say, as Man U fans. "Homogeneity" is different than "relate to each other and don't feel threatned by each other." Some of the bitterest rivals can be between different members of the same family. While Switzerland is surely an example of a successful non-homogenous country in Europe. If that's the case, then why not argue that the ability to relate to each other and not feel threatened is the key? Homogeneity seems like a false and bland goal.

guylhem 14y ago
(Great example with soccer fans!) Homogeneity is just a proxy - but if people can better relate to eachother if they look the same and/or believe in the same things, maybe it's a valuable proxy? But you're right, the ability to relate to eachother is more important in the end - and some countries do better on this, even with less homogeneity. I'd call that the "social contract" - I don't know if there is a better way to understand it.