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Did the fact that all of the models are, in fact, the apparently objectified and degraded women pass everyone up? Look, I am totally against misogyny and sexis

Did the fact that all of the models are, in fact, the apparently objectified and degraded women pass everyone up? Look, I am totally against misogyny and sexism as much as the next guy, but I have a hard time taking these posts seriously on a few counts: 1- A large portion of the marketing industry is based around the "objectifying of women." Women should go out in droves and write long screeds against marketers (pigs?) instead of flooding the marketing companies with their resumes. 2- Stop buying clothes from the long list of fashion companies that are clearly objectifying women to an unrealistic standard of beauty. Oh, right, fashion schools aren't male dominated either. I love women and I have a lot of female (and male) friends, and I am just as bent out of shape about the way marketing is done as many other marketers (which I am), but you have to call out double-standards when you see them if you are ever going to have an intelligent debate about it. It's very easy to point out a male-dominated industry and call it all sexism, but please look at the very culture you not only built with your sisters-in-arms, but the culture you implicitly support with your dollars. As for the picture in question. Yeah, I don't see how it sells hard-drives either.

jamesaguilar 14y ago
Re: your point 2. There is a huuuuuuge difference between women dressed in the clothes being marketed sending the message, "You could look like this," to other women, and women placed on pedestals like the product being marketed sending the message, "Buying this hard drive is like buying hot sexy naked me," to a group mainly comprised of men. Huuuuge difference. Maybe the former is not completely kosher, but the degree is so different that it makes zero sense to accuse someone of not calling out double standards when they mention the one and not the other. Also, it is really silly to tell activists that they aren't allowed to bother you until they have sufficiently bothered everyone else to your satisfaction. Basically all you've done is ask them to go away. It is morally equivalent to saying that people are not allowed to worry about healthcare or the homeless in their own country until the Africa problem is fixed. It's dumb. Also, plenty of feminists are complaining about the representation of women in fashion. So on top of being bad rhetoric, your objection is wrong on the facts. > I love women and I have a lot of female (and male) friends If there was a website called "x-ist-tropes.com", "I have X friends, my mom is an X" would be the #1 trope for almost any value of X. Just don't say it.
- dizzystar 14y ago
  I can write about sexism in female-dominated industries all day, and there are most certainly sexists pigs of all stripes and all genders. The fact is that the tech industry is a super-easy target for people to jump on, and this is wrong on so many levels it is barely worth writing about anymore. I could write long screeds about being a male in marketing and other industries, but what does it accomplish but upping my view-count? Honestly, I'm not sure what the Africa thing is about.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    > Honestly, I'm not sure what the Africa thing is about. There is an argument that people make that you're not allowed to complain about first world problems (for example, the NDAA) until we've fixed things like world hunger.
    - dizzystar 14y ago
      Conversely, how come America feels like it can fix the world's problems when it has so many of its own that it can't fix?
  - jamesaguilar 14y ago
    > what does it accomplish but upping my view-count? Same thing any form of political writing accomplishes. It tries to convince the audience to change their view. > Honestly, I'm not sure what the Africa thing is about. To paraphrase your original comment, "you shouldn't talk about this problem, because that problem isn't fixed." This maps well onto the an argument I've heard that "you shouldn't worry about homeless people in America while so many are starving in Africa."
  - jeffcutsinger 14y ago
    > The fact is that the tech industry is a super-easy target for people to jump on, and this is wrong on so many levels it is barely worth writing about anymore. Yeah, let's just stay silent and the problem will fix itself.
- 14y ago
king_jester 14y ago
Women can be sexist towards women just as much as any other kind of person. In fact, some people have internalized misogynist feelings about women as a gender: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/ http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internali... Also, people do quite loudly complain about objectification in media, esp. in advertising. Jean Kilbourne does a lecture series about this very subject called Killing Us Softly (trailer is on youtube): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kilbourne#Works http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kilbourne#Works
- mwetzler 14y ago
  The Miss Representation documentary is REALLY GOOD. If you have a mother, sister, daughter, or girlfriend I'd highly recommend watching it.
mwetzler 14y ago
Are you saying I shouldn't write this post because some women work in fashion? Honestly, I don't understand.
- dizzystar 14y ago
  No, I am saying that pointing fingers is easy to do and I can point to anything I wish. Blaming others for societal problems when there is clearly issues from within the very people this post defends is wrong-headed. If you want to be taken seriously as a person, I would suggest you learn to take responsibility for your own actions and be an equal opportunity blamer. Look in then look out.
  - mwetzler 14y ago
    I'm working very hard to be a strong woman in tech and support other women in tech. I don't understand why I shouldn't be taken seriously. I don't understand why you think that because some women are sexist, I can't talk about it. This post wasn't targeted at men or women, it was target at HyperMac, which includes men and women. Women are half of the population. We don't work as a group and we don't have a hive mind.
    - dizzystar 14y ago
      You're points are totally valid and I don't fault you for making them, but you are attacking an easy target, and your post has a much more men -vs- women attitude in it. All the articles posted on HN forget to make it obvious that women were behind this offense as much as men, and in many cases, the women were more responsible for the offense than the men. I'm a marketer and I'm a male, thus I am a quant and have no sense of "creativity" or "feel." Women are more creative, do better at writing for social media, and are better with people. I'm a male that can't doesn't represent the flair culture a company is looking for. I hope you don't believe all of this is true and I doubt you'd be interested in reading about my plight, but I hope you find this attitude insulting toward both men and women.
      - 14y ago
shantanubala 14y ago
> 1- A large portion of the marketing industry is based around the "objectifying of women." Women should go out in droves and write long screeds against marketers (pigs?) instead of flooding the marketing companies with their resumes. It's not that simple. Societal pressure can cause people to behave in ways that are detrimental to their own well-being (especially in a situation where the actual effects are extremely subtle). Question: which job would be more appealing to the average person who identifies as female: a job where she gets to work with other women and not face any criticism, harassment, or judgement for doing so, or a job where she is surrounded by men who (on average) get paid more and hold all of the higher level positions? Take it a step further: if I'm a women, and I was being objectified, I would prefer to be objectified by women rather than men. I'd prefer to be in a career and a position that allows me to control how I am perceived, if I am going to be objectified regardless of which career I chose. The current power structure favors men, and it's more the responsibility of those with power to make positive change. It doesn't mean women aren't responsible for their own well-being, but it means that men are more responsible for any detriment we cause when power is in our favor.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
saraid216 14y ago
Fun fact: Women are individuals and not a hive mind.
- mwetzler 14y ago
  haha. I know it seems absurd to say that women are not a hive mind, but I don't know how else to react when someone says something like "if you want people to think x about women, stop women from doing y". As if I wield some kind of influence over women just because I'm a woman. That would be an amazing superpower.
dorkitude 14y ago
To me, your post could be pretty easily translated to another industry & time as follows: "Got a problem with slavery? Stop complaining about it! And just buy cotton from the Yankees or from the Dutch, ya bunch of whiners." Drawing maximum attention to the problem is the most important step in solving it. Even stoking seemingly unproductive conversations like this HackerNews thread is an important step, if only because it helps those of us who are on the side of justice practice our arguments.
raganwald 14y ago
I'm calling this statement out as nonsense. The fact that this woman or that woman participates in it does not mean it's wrong to call it out. If you don't call it out 999 times in a row, it does not mean you have abrogated your right to call it out the 1,000th time. There were black slave owners. Did that suddenly make it wrong to call slavery out? many whites said nothing for a century. When they spoke up, should they have remained silent for another century? This thing can be judged on its own merits without resorting to Ad Hominem Tu Quoque. This statement feels an awful lot like cross-examining a rape victim about her sexual past in an attempt to discredit her as a witness and intimidate other women so they won't speak up in the future.

jamesaguilar 14y ago

Re: your point 2. There is a huuuuuuge difference between women dressed in the clothes being marketed sending the message, "You could look like this," to other women, and women placed on pedestals like the product being marketed sending the message, "Buying this hard drive is like buying hot sexy naked me," to a group mainly comprised of men. Huuuuge difference. Maybe the former is not completely kosher, but the degree is so different that it makes zero sense to accuse someone of not calling out double standards when they mention the one and not the other. Also, it is really silly to tell activists that they aren't allowed to bother you until they have sufficiently bothered everyone else to your satisfaction. Basically all you've done is ask them to go away. It is morally equivalent to saying that people are not allowed to worry about healthcare or the homeless in their own country until the Africa problem is fixed. It's dumb. Also, plenty of feminists are complaining about the representation of women in fashion. So on top of being bad rhetoric, your objection is wrong on the facts. > I love women and I have a lot of female (and male) friends If there was a website called "x-ist-tropes.com", "I have X friends, my mom is an X" would be the #1 trope for almost any value of X. Just don't say it.

dizzystar 14y ago
I can write about sexism in female-dominated industries all day, and there are most certainly sexists pigs of all stripes and all genders. The fact is that the tech industry is a super-easy target for people to jump on, and this is wrong on so many levels it is barely worth writing about anymore. I could write long screeds about being a male in marketing and other industries, but what does it accomplish but upping my view-count? Honestly, I'm not sure what the Africa thing is about.
- saraid216 14y ago
  > Honestly, I'm not sure what the Africa thing is about. There is an argument that people make that you're not allowed to complain about first world problems (for example, the NDAA) until we've fixed things like world hunger.
  - dizzystar 14y ago
    Conversely, how come America feels like it can fix the world's problems when it has so many of its own that it can't fix?
- jamesaguilar 14y ago
  > what does it accomplish but upping my view-count? Same thing any form of political writing accomplishes. It tries to convince the audience to change their view. > Honestly, I'm not sure what the Africa thing is about. To paraphrase your original comment, "you shouldn't talk about this problem, because that problem isn't fixed." This maps well onto the an argument I've heard that "you shouldn't worry about homeless people in America while so many are starving in Africa."
- jeffcutsinger 14y ago
  > The fact is that the tech industry is a super-easy target for people to jump on, and this is wrong on so many levels it is barely worth writing about anymore. Yeah, let's just stay silent and the problem will fix itself.
14y ago

king_jester 14y ago

Women can be sexist towards women just as much as any other kind of person. In fact, some people have internalized misogynist feelings about women as a gender: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/ http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internali... Also, people do quite loudly complain about objectification in media, esp. in advertising. Jean Kilbourne does a lecture series about this very subject called Killing Us Softly (trailer is on youtube): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kilbourne#Works http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kilbourne#Works

mwetzler 14y ago
The Miss Representation documentary is REALLY GOOD. If you have a mother, sister, daughter, or girlfriend I'd highly recommend watching it.

mwetzler 14y ago

Are you saying I shouldn't write this post because some women work in fashion? Honestly, I don't understand.

dizzystar 14y ago
No, I am saying that pointing fingers is easy to do and I can point to anything I wish. Blaming others for societal problems when there is clearly issues from within the very people this post defends is wrong-headed. If you want to be taken seriously as a person, I would suggest you learn to take responsibility for your own actions and be an equal opportunity blamer. Look in then look out.
- mwetzler 14y ago
  I'm working very hard to be a strong woman in tech and support other women in tech. I don't understand why I shouldn't be taken seriously. I don't understand why you think that because some women are sexist, I can't talk about it. This post wasn't targeted at men or women, it was target at HyperMac, which includes men and women. Women are half of the population. We don't work as a group and we don't have a hive mind.
  - dizzystar 14y ago
    You're points are totally valid and I don't fault you for making them, but you are attacking an easy target, and your post has a much more men -vs- women attitude in it. All the articles posted on HN forget to make it obvious that women were behind this offense as much as men, and in many cases, the women were more responsible for the offense than the men. I'm a marketer and I'm a male, thus I am a quant and have no sense of "creativity" or "feel." Women are more creative, do better at writing for social media, and are better with people. I'm a male that can't doesn't represent the flair culture a company is looking for. I hope you don't believe all of this is true and I doubt you'd be interested in reading about my plight, but I hope you find this attitude insulting toward both men and women.
    - 14y ago

shantanubala 14y ago

> 1- A large portion of the marketing industry is based around the "objectifying of women." Women should go out in droves and write long screeds against marketers (pigs?) instead of flooding the marketing companies with their resumes. It's not that simple. Societal pressure can cause people to behave in ways that are detrimental to their own well-being (especially in a situation where the actual effects are extremely subtle). Question: which job would be more appealing to the average person who identifies as female: a job where she gets to work with other women and not face any criticism, harassment, or judgement for doing so, or a job where she is surrounded by men who (on average) get paid more and hold all of the higher level positions? Take it a step further: if I'm a women, and I was being objectified, I would prefer to be objectified by women rather than men. I'd prefer to be in a career and a position that allows me to control how I am perceived, if I am going to be objectified regardless of which career I chose. The current power structure favors men, and it's more the responsibility of those with power to make positive change. It doesn't mean women aren't responsible for their own well-being, but it means that men are more responsible for any detriment we cause when power is in our favor.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

saraid216 14y ago

Fun fact: Women are individuals and not a hive mind.

mwetzler 14y ago
haha. I know it seems absurd to say that women are not a hive mind, but I don't know how else to react when someone says something like "if you want people to think x about women, stop women from doing y". As if I wield some kind of influence over women just because I'm a woman. That would be an amazing superpower.

dorkitude 14y ago

To me, your post could be pretty easily translated to another industry & time as follows: "Got a problem with slavery? Stop complaining about it! And just buy cotton from the Yankees or from the Dutch, ya bunch of whiners." Drawing maximum attention to the problem is the most important step in solving it. Even stoking seemingly unproductive conversations like this HackerNews thread is an important step, if only because it helps those of us who are on the side of justice practice our arguments.

raganwald 14y ago

I'm calling this statement out as nonsense. The fact that this woman or that woman participates in it does not mean it's wrong to call it out. If you don't call it out 999 times in a row, it does not mean you have abrogated your right to call it out the 1,000th time. There were black slave owners. Did that suddenly make it wrong to call slavery out? many whites said nothing for a century. When they spoke up, should they have remained silent for another century? This thing can be judged on its own merits without resorting to Ad Hominem Tu Quoque. This statement feels an awful lot like cross-examining a rape victim about her sexual past in an attempt to discredit her as a witness and intimidate other women so they won't speak up in the future.