10 ms·

I will assume you tried chiropractor, acupuncture, and perhaps even yoga?

by loceng 14y ago

neotek 14y ago
And pixie dust and sugar pills and wishes.
- pm90 14y ago
  Do not dismiss other techniques so easily. The human body is a very complex mechanism and we still don't know exactly how it works. Modern medicine has been based only on the knowledge that we have: which is thus quite limited. I'm not saying that they will work. But acupuncture and yoga are not the same as pixie dust, dung pills or what have you. To give an example of what I mean: the waters of the Ganges were said to have "magical powers that cured disease"[0]. It was later found that the waters contained bacteriophages that killed bacteria. Could anyone have guessed this? [0]:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225782/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225782/
  - neotek 14y ago
    >But acupuncture and yoga are not the same as pixie dust, dung pills or what have you. Okay, so why don't they show any efficacy above pixie dust in double-blinded studies?
    - r00fus 14y ago
      Do you have a cite for this? And efficacy in what? They are not medicines, they are lifestyles (just like lifting or diet as another commenter mentioned)
    - sp332 14y ago
      Don't forget that pixie dust (or a saline injection) can actually be fairly effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#Pain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#Pain
    - mkl 14y ago
      Unfortunately, double blind studies of acupuncture are impossible (the person doing it must know if they're putting needles in), and single blind studies are almost impossible (the patient can feel the needles, and tell how far in they are). The only thing than can be tested is the traditional Chinese medicine chi flow idea, and even assuming there's no chi flow along meridians, that doesn't mean the special locations it tries to explain aren't valid for some other reason. But it can't be tested. It's all deeply frustrating. I tried acupuncture a few years ago (at a doctor's recommendation) and did a lot of reading. It didn't work for me, unsurprisingly - about the only thing it's been shown to have any effect for is some types of lower back pain, and my pain was (is) mostly in my hands.
      - jcrites 14y ago
        > Unfortunately, double blind studies of acupuncture are impossible It doesn't seem completely impossible. You could have someone put the same needles in randomly, instead of in whatever location acupuncture claims they should be put in.
        mkl 14y ago
        That would be single blind (edit: actually, now I see what you mean, double WRT location), but yes, the locations can be tested - and they have been. The needle action itself is what can't be properly tested.
        MDS100 14y ago
        No it has been tested. It's only placebo.
        homosaur 14y ago
        Yeah I actually agree with that in theory because the needles would be mimicking the same side effect, the sensation of needle in skin, to a good effect.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
ollysb 14y ago
After a snowboarding accident I was left with a knee that I couldn't run on. I saw physios for 2 years and saw no improvement. 2 months of osteopathy(twice a week) and yoga(3 classes + 20 minutes at home on the other days per week) and I was good to go, running, snowboarding, the works. I find I still need to do some yoga every now and again(maybe once or twice a month) but apart from that it's forgotten.
driverdan 14y ago
Yoga, perhaps, but it's on par with other low impact physical activity and stretching. The other two are just pseudoscience.
- loceng 14y ago
  Have you had acupuncture and/or chiropractor? They at minimum can give relief.
  - parfe 14y ago
    Stooge: "Thanks 'Dr' that feels slightly better." Chiropractor: "Great! Now let's just get you scheduled for three appointments a week for the rest of your life."
    - loceng 14y ago
      Yes, you have to deal with the underlying problems - if there are any that can be dealt with, to get your alignment back in place, etc..
- pnathan 14y ago
  Chiropractic is often very effective for manipulating bones and muscles into a correct alignment. While there is a part of chiropractic that is, imo, alchemy, don't disregard the rest.
  - daeken 14y ago
    There's also a very significant risk of injury involved with chiropractic procedures, especially when spinal injuries are involved.
  - snogglethorpe 14y ago
    I've actually been to a chiropractor, as a sort of desperate measure once when I had really horrible back pain, could barely stand straight etc—exactly the sort of thing you'd think chiropractic would be perfectly suited for. I was skeptical about chiropractors, given their reputation, but I figured it couldn't hurt to try (er, probably... :). The chiropractor I went to was in a fairly wealthy neighborhood, had a nice office, and seemed "respectable." However, once he actually started, it very quickly became clear he hadn't the faintest clue what he was doing, didn't care much, and was just going through some very simplistic motions. He not only failed to have any effect on my problem, but he was singularly ineffective in even trying to track down the issue. It was a very different experience from a normal doctor: almost every real doctor, even when completely confused and out of his depth, at least has clear techniques for probing and trying to figure out what's up or at least figure out the next step to take or who to ask—and they will very freely refer you to someone else if that's called for. This chiropractor: nothing. Zero. Nada. After 30 minutes of painfully obvious hand waving, he then said "ok, well I guess you'd better schedule another appointment." I then went out into his waiting room, and heard another patient chatting with the secretary, and it became clear this patient was a "regular." It seemed fairly obvious that the whole scam was to get patients on the appointment treadmill, offering promises, but no relief, continually dangling in front of them the hope that "next time" things would get better... Maybe not every chiropractor is this way, but my experience perfectly matched their generally poor reputation, so I suspect it's more common than not. [I didn't schedule another appointment... :]

I will assume you tried chiropractor, acupuncture, and perhaps even yoga?

by loceng 14y ago

I will assume you tried chiropractor, acupuncture, and perhaps even yoga?

neotek 14y ago

And pixie dust and sugar pills and wishes.

pm90 14y ago
Do not dismiss other techniques so easily. The human body is a very complex mechanism and we still don't know exactly how it works. Modern medicine has been based only on the knowledge that we have: which is thus quite limited. I'm not saying that they will work. But acupuncture and yoga are not the same as pixie dust, dung pills or what have you. To give an example of what I mean: the waters of the Ganges were said to have "magical powers that cured disease"[0]. It was later found that the waters contained bacteriophages that killed bacteria. Could anyone have guessed this? [0]:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225782/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225782/
- neotek 14y ago
  >But acupuncture and yoga are not the same as pixie dust, dung pills or what have you. Okay, so why don't they show any efficacy above pixie dust in double-blinded studies?
  - r00fus 14y ago
    Do you have a cite for this? And efficacy in what? They are not medicines, they are lifestyles (just like lifting or diet as another commenter mentioned)
  - sp332 14y ago
    Don't forget that pixie dust (or a saline injection) can actually be fairly effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#Pain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#Pain
  - mkl 14y ago
    Unfortunately, double blind studies of acupuncture are impossible (the person doing it must know if they're putting needles in), and single blind studies are almost impossible (the patient can feel the needles, and tell how far in they are). The only thing than can be tested is the traditional Chinese medicine chi flow idea, and even assuming there's no chi flow along meridians, that doesn't mean the special locations it tries to explain aren't valid for some other reason. But it can't be tested. It's all deeply frustrating. I tried acupuncture a few years ago (at a doctor's recommendation) and did a lot of reading. It didn't work for me, unsurprisingly - about the only thing it's been shown to have any effect for is some types of lower back pain, and my pain was (is) mostly in my hands.
    - jcrites 14y ago
      > Unfortunately, double blind studies of acupuncture are impossible It doesn't seem completely impossible. You could have someone put the same needles in randomly, instead of in whatever location acupuncture claims they should be put in.
      - mkl 14y ago
        That would be single blind (edit: actually, now I see what you mean, double WRT location), but yes, the locations can be tested - and they have been. The needle action itself is what can't be properly tested.
        MDS100 14y ago
        No it has been tested. It's only placebo.
        homosaur 14y ago
        Yeah I actually agree with that in theory because the needles would be mimicking the same side effect, the sensation of needle in skin, to a good effect.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

ollysb 14y ago

After a snowboarding accident I was left with a knee that I couldn't run on. I saw physios for 2 years and saw no improvement. 2 months of osteopathy(twice a week) and yoga(3 classes + 20 minutes at home on the other days per week) and I was good to go, running, snowboarding, the works. I find I still need to do some yoga every now and again(maybe once or twice a month) but apart from that it's forgotten.

driverdan 14y ago

Yoga, perhaps, but it's on par with other low impact physical activity and stretching. The other two are just pseudoscience.

loceng 14y ago
Have you had acupuncture and/or chiropractor? They at minimum can give relief.
- parfe 14y ago
  Stooge: "Thanks 'Dr' that feels slightly better." Chiropractor: "Great! Now let's just get you scheduled for three appointments a week for the rest of your life."
  - loceng 14y ago
    Yes, you have to deal with the underlying problems - if there are any that can be dealt with, to get your alignment back in place, etc..
pnathan 14y ago
Chiropractic is often very effective for manipulating bones and muscles into a correct alignment. While there is a part of chiropractic that is, imo, alchemy, don't disregard the rest.
- daeken 14y ago
  There's also a very significant risk of injury involved with chiropractic procedures, especially when spinal injuries are involved.
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  I've actually been to a chiropractor, as a sort of desperate measure once when I had really horrible back pain, could barely stand straight etc—exactly the sort of thing you'd think chiropractic would be perfectly suited for. I was skeptical about chiropractors, given their reputation, but I figured it couldn't hurt to try (er, probably... :). The chiropractor I went to was in a fairly wealthy neighborhood, had a nice office, and seemed "respectable." However, once he actually started, it very quickly became clear he hadn't the faintest clue what he was doing, didn't care much, and was just going through some very simplistic motions. He not only failed to have any effect on my problem, but he was singularly ineffective in even trying to track down the issue. It was a very different experience from a normal doctor: almost every real doctor, even when completely confused and out of his depth, at least has clear techniques for probing and trying to figure out what's up or at least figure out the next step to take or who to ask—and they will very freely refer you to someone else if that's called for. This chiropractor: nothing. Zero. Nada. After 30 minutes of painfully obvious hand waving, he then said "ok, well I guess you'd better schedule another appointment." I then went out into his waiting room, and heard another patient chatting with the secretary, and it became clear this patient was a "regular." It seemed fairly obvious that the whole scam was to get patients on the appointment treadmill, offering promises, but no relief, continually dangling in front of them the hope that "next time" things would get better... Maybe not every chiropractor is this way, but my experience perfectly matched their generally poor reputation, so I suspect it's more common than not. [I didn't schedule another appointment... :]