5 ms·

In the climbing example as presented, you should be at least three mistakes away from injury. The belayer should check the climber's harness and knots before a

In the climbing example as presented, you should be at least three mistakes away from injury. The belayer should check the climber's harness and knots before allowing the climber to climb. Naturally the climber should check that the belayer's harness is fastened securely and that the belay device is rigged properly before climbing too. Realistically, there are still several single points of failure in the system: 1) The space between the belayer's ears 2) the rope if it has become damaged since it was flaked and inspected or gets cut while catching a fall. Yes, that happened, though not to me [1]. 3) The protection on the wall, due to improper use. although depending on how high you are, the next piece down might still keep you off the deck. 4) The harness itself, although barring invisible damage this should be caught by the belayer/climber him/herself and the cross check. 5) The protection on the wall due to gear failure. The above are listed in what I would consider descending probability, although 2 and 3 are pretty close, with 3 probably jumping 2 in trad climbing. I would rate the probability of 5 being negligible barring manufacturing defects, the prevention and possibly detection of which is probably outside the expertise of virtually all climbers. Moral of the story: safety is complicated. (edited to add) I'd believe that trying to get people to apply a simple model of "how many mistakes" is better than none, but I wonder to what extent it reduces safety by making people complacent about having done a risk analysis when the system is too complicated to be analyzed that way. [1] http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13270 http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=132...

JoeAltmaier 14y ago
Thanks, yes, our climbing staff at camp is skilled at teaching correct climbing technique. I use this example to help 10-yr-olds understand why they cannot climb a random rock face during a hike.
- mauvehaus 14y ago
  I didn't mean to suggest otherwise about the teaching of safety if that's how you read my comment. I think the model you're teaching to the 10-year-olds is both well suited to the audience, and gives them a tool to use to analyze other situations they find themselves in. Sorry if I got derailed a bit from that point while fleshing out the safety system involved in climbing and the risks therein for the non-climbers. Now I just wish that some of the people I see climbing outside (and inside!) would think as much as you're asking the 10-year-olds to. If they did that much they'd be much safer, nevermind a fuller analysis of the system.
  - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
    No offence taken; it was instructive to see the whole analysis. I may take that to a meeting and read it to the Troop if you don't mind?
    - mauvehaus 14y ago
      You're certainly welcome to, so long as you don't scare them off climbing ;-) I should also note that I am in no way professionally qualified to talk about safety in climbing, or risk analysis in general. I just like to climb, and prefer to do so safely.
      - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
        No problem, I'll frame this as a 'Scoutmaster's Minute' where we talk philosophy and do Q&A. Give them something to think about as the go out the door. Thanks!
phil 14y ago
I'm pretty sure it's climber error and mis-rigging by at least 10x. Gear failures of all kinds are extremely rare. Edit: objective hazard is significant, too: rockfall, afternoon thunderstorms, etc.
- kejadlen 14y ago
  That would be pretty accurate, according to ANAM[1]. It's almost never due to equipment failure. [1]http://www.amazon.com/Accidents-North-American-Mountaineering-Alpine/dp/1933056770/ http://www.amazon.com/Accidents-North-American-Mountaineerin...
- gregholmberg 14y ago
  Here is a story is about equipment failure. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Fatal-fall-at-Yosemite-shocks-climbing-world-2485866.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Fatal-fall-at-Yosemite-sh... There are also errors in judgment, but the gear is the center of this story. The final paragraphs are still hard for me to read, six years on. edit: adding National Park Service summaries . NPS Morning Report for October 26, 2006 Yosemite National Park (CA) Noted Climber Falls To His Death An experienced rock climber fell to his death this past Monday while climbing near Bridalveil Fall in Yosemite Valley. Todd Skinner, 47, of Lander, Wyoming, was climbing a route on the Leaning Tower when he fell approximately 500 feet to his death. Skinner's climbing partner reported the fall at around 4 p.m. Skinner was pronounced dead at the scene. He is survived by his wife and three children. The exact cause of death is under investigation. [Submitted by Adrienne Freeman, Public Affairs] . NPS Morning Report for October 30, 2006 Yosemite National Park (CA) Follow-up On Fatal Climbing Fall On the afternoon of October 23rd, dispatch received a telephone call reporting a fatal climbing fall. Jim Hewitt reported that he and his partner, well-known climber Todd Skinner, had been working on a first free ascent of the "Jesus Built My Hotrod" route on the overhanging west face of the Leaning Tower. Skinner's fall occurred when he was rappelling. Hewitt told investigators that he had been above Skinner when he fell. As he was rappelling on the low-stretch ropes that they had fixed on the route, Hewitt came to Skinner's Grigri descent device on the rope at the point where he had fallen. The Grigri had a still-locked carabiner attached which had been connected to Skinner's harness. When Skinner's body was recovered, the belay loop on his harness was missing. The next day, rangers recovered a broken harness belay loop in vegetation at the base of the wall. It was very worn at the spot where the break had occurred. Hewitt later told investigators that Skinner was aware that the belay loop on his harness was in a weakened condition prior to the climb, and that they had talked about its poor condition three days earlier. ... . [Submitted by Keith Lober, Emergency Services Coordinator]
jrockway 14y ago
Harnesses are redundant, too. About a year ago, I watched someone get half way up the wall and fall, only to have her harness come unbuckled. Fortunately, the leg loops kept her suspended and she just down-climbed and fixed her harness. (Part of the problem in this case was not understanding how the mechanism worked, which is not a good idea when it's the mechanism that stops you from falling 30 feet onto the ground.)

JoeAltmaier 14y ago

Thanks, yes, our climbing staff at camp is skilled at teaching correct climbing technique. I use this example to help 10-yr-olds understand why they cannot climb a random rock face during a hike.

mauvehaus 14y ago
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise about the teaching of safety if that's how you read my comment. I think the model you're teaching to the 10-year-olds is both well suited to the audience, and gives them a tool to use to analyze other situations they find themselves in. Sorry if I got derailed a bit from that point while fleshing out the safety system involved in climbing and the risks therein for the non-climbers. Now I just wish that some of the people I see climbing outside (and inside!) would think as much as you're asking the 10-year-olds to. If they did that much they'd be much safer, nevermind a fuller analysis of the system.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  No offence taken; it was instructive to see the whole analysis. I may take that to a meeting and read it to the Troop if you don't mind?
  - mauvehaus 14y ago
    You're certainly welcome to, so long as you don't scare them off climbing ;-) I should also note that I am in no way professionally qualified to talk about safety in climbing, or risk analysis in general. I just like to climb, and prefer to do so safely.
    - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
      No problem, I'll frame this as a 'Scoutmaster's Minute' where we talk philosophy and do Q&A. Give them something to think about as the go out the door. Thanks!

phil 14y ago

I'm pretty sure it's climber error and mis-rigging by at least 10x. Gear failures of all kinds are extremely rare. Edit: objective hazard is significant, too: rockfall, afternoon thunderstorms, etc.

kejadlen 14y ago
That would be pretty accurate, according to ANAM[1]. It's almost never due to equipment failure. [1]http://www.amazon.com/Accidents-North-American-Mountaineering-Alpine/dp/1933056770/ http://www.amazon.com/Accidents-North-American-Mountaineerin...
gregholmberg 14y ago
Here is a story is about equipment failure. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Fatal-fall-at-Yosemite-shocks-climbing-world-2485866.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Fatal-fall-at-Yosemite-sh... There are also errors in judgment, but the gear is the center of this story. The final paragraphs are still hard for me to read, six years on. edit: adding National Park Service summaries . NPS Morning Report for October 26, 2006 Yosemite National Park (CA) Noted Climber Falls To His Death An experienced rock climber fell to his death this past Monday while climbing near Bridalveil Fall in Yosemite Valley. Todd Skinner, 47, of Lander, Wyoming, was climbing a route on the Leaning Tower when he fell approximately 500 feet to his death. Skinner's climbing partner reported the fall at around 4 p.m. Skinner was pronounced dead at the scene. He is survived by his wife and three children. The exact cause of death is under investigation. [Submitted by Adrienne Freeman, Public Affairs] . NPS Morning Report for October 30, 2006 Yosemite National Park (CA) Follow-up On Fatal Climbing Fall On the afternoon of October 23rd, dispatch received a telephone call reporting a fatal climbing fall. Jim Hewitt reported that he and his partner, well-known climber Todd Skinner, had been working on a first free ascent of the "Jesus Built My Hotrod" route on the overhanging west face of the Leaning Tower. Skinner's fall occurred when he was rappelling. Hewitt told investigators that he had been above Skinner when he fell. As he was rappelling on the low-stretch ropes that they had fixed on the route, Hewitt came to Skinner's Grigri descent device on the rope at the point where he had fallen. The Grigri had a still-locked carabiner attached which had been connected to Skinner's harness. When Skinner's body was recovered, the belay loop on his harness was missing. The next day, rangers recovered a broken harness belay loop in vegetation at the base of the wall. It was very worn at the spot where the break had occurred. Hewitt later told investigators that Skinner was aware that the belay loop on his harness was in a weakened condition prior to the climb, and that they had talked about its poor condition three days earlier. ... . [Submitted by Keith Lober, Emergency Services Coordinator]

jrockway 14y ago

Harnesses are redundant, too. About a year ago, I watched someone get half way up the wall and fall, only to have her harness come unbuckled. Fortunately, the leg loops kept her suspended and she just down-climbed and fixed her harness. (Part of the problem in this case was not understanding how the mechanism worked, which is not a good idea when it's the mechanism that stops you from falling 30 feet onto the ground.)