6 ms·

Interesting article, but the comment about "dutch courage": "Yes, even the Dutch were not spared from the racism." isn't really correct. Dutch courage has bee

by leoedin 14y ago

Interesting article, but the comment about "dutch courage": "Yes, even the Dutch were not spared from the racism." isn't really correct. Dutch courage has been an expression for alcohol-induced courage for centuries. Even in the early 20th century it wasn't making a comment on the Dutch, just using a common expression. Is that expression still common in the US? It certainly is in the UK. Rather nitpicky though...

digitalengineer 14y ago
It actually refers to English soldiers fighting in the Dutch republic and drinking Dutch Gin before the battle. Time-frame: 17th century.
- smackay 14y ago
  There were also a large contingent of Scottish mercenaries serving in the Low Countries, see http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-5599.html http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-5599.html http://www.irss.uoguelph.ca/article/view/635/1056 http://www.irss.uoguelph.ca/article/view/635/1056 It's not clear from the sources whether they also needed a stiff drink before going into battle ;)
kahawe 14y ago
Just because certain expressions might still be used today and might not be on the fore-front of racism awareness does not make them any less racist. But you are right, the article had it wrong: > Originally the phrase 'Dutch courage' referred to the courage that results from indulgence in Dutch gin (jenever), but 'Dutch courage' can also refer to the gin itself. [...] Because of the effects of Dutch gin English soldiers fighting in the Dutch Republic in the 17th century apparently called the drink "Dutch Courage". So it never actually referred to the people.
- leoedin 14y ago
  This presents an interesting point of consideration. If a saying has its roots in racism, is it still racist if its applied centures later to a completely different context? I'd argue that even if "Dutch courage" was originally in some way racist against the dutch, the racist intent has been stripped away by time. Dutch courage isn't a racist saying at this point, it's just a universally recognised expression for substance-induced courage. A bit of googling reveals that there's quite a lot of expression with racist roots that we use all the time in different contexts.[1] [1]: It is a cracked article, but it makes some valid points: http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-every-day.html http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-...
  - jules 14y ago
    Regardless of the origins, if an expression is applied to a different context, it might still cause subconscious associations to form in the human brain. If you hear "Dutch courage" often enough, you might subconsciously start to link the Dutch to cowardice. For a more modern example take the word "gay". It originally meant "happy". Then it meant "homosexual". As a result of that second meaning large numbers of people use the word as a synonym for "unlikable" or "bad". If somebody uses the word in a context like "that movie is gay", that reinforces the connection between the concept "bad" and the concept "homosexual". Therefore what's important is not the origins of a word, but its current associations and effects: "my car was vandalized" is OK but "that movie is gay" is not.
    - shardling 14y ago
      >As a result of that second meaning large numbers of people use the word as a synonym for "unlikable" or "bad". It is possible that this is kind like how the word bad itself was derived! (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bad http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bad) >a mystery word with no apparent relatives in other languages. Possibly from Old English derogatory term bæddel and its diminutive bædling "effeminate man, hermaphrodite, pederast"
      - twerquie 14y ago
- robbiep 14y ago
  Random comment: I went to the Bols brewing company tour in Amsterdam last week, which invented the first Geniever, which the English later turned into gin - oh my god is it something that takes some acclimatising to. Too much juniper berries! Very much an acquired taste
SideburnsOfDoom 14y ago
> "racism" ... isn't really correct. Dutch courage has been an expression for alcohol-induced courage for centuries. Right, it is centuries-old racism. Only 3 centuries though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Dutch_Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Dutch_Wars
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  Nah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_courage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_courage
- leoedin 14y ago
  But in the context, it wasn't actually racist. It is not racist to suggest that cocaine usage makes an individual more courageous, and given that the accepted (and still accepted) saying for inebriation-related courage is Dutch courage, it wasn't racist to say that cocaine gave shy individuals dutch courage. Perhaps the expression has its origins in racism, but centuries later and without that original context, I'd argue that its no longer a racist expression. It was of course racist for Dr Ed to suggest that somehow the issue was only with black people, but that's unrelated to the use of the expression dutch courage.
hencq 14y ago
That was the joke.
deleted 14y ago
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tokenadult 14y ago
There was a war between England and the Netherlands centuries ago that resulted in terms like "Dutch treat," "Dutch uncle," "Dutch courage," and so on. A personal website based in the Netherlands http://homepages.cwi.nl/~sjoerd/dutch.html http://homepages.cwi.nl/~sjoerd/dutch.html helpfully collects many of those terms, but it seems that the author of the website hasn't read the same book about word and phrase origins I read many years ago (I'm sorry I don't remember which specific book it was, as I read many books on that topic) that explains that those terms entered the English language, along with many others that are now obsolete, during the war. I have a lot of Dutch friends (Dutch nationals in the United States on work-related visas) because of my children's involvement in soccer. The long-ago war between England and the Netherlands is now, er, water over the dam, and indeed one of my Dutch friends has an English wife. So the origin of these expressions is largely forgotten, but, yes, the phrases originated in a wartime contempt for Dutch people among the English.
- dirktheman 14y ago
  It's funny how there are a lot of expressions with the word 'dutch' in it with a negative connotation. I'm Dutch, and I can't think of any expression with the word 'Engels' in it, both with positive or negative connotation.
  - nikatwork 14y ago
    In Australia, we have the "dutch oven", which is a childish gag involving flatulence. I have no idea how this is connected to the Dutch. Then again, in the 80s here everyone made racist Irish jokes, but now they all pretend to be part Irish as it's trendy. (Disclaimer: I actually am part Irish). People are weird.
    - dmayle 14y ago
      Sure, but that one stems from a cast iron pot called the Dutch oven (called so because the Dutch excelled at making them). They're cast iron puts that you put something into, and often seal under a layer of hot ash for cooking. The childish gag involves sealing someone under to 'cook', just like you would with a Dutch oven.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

by leoedin 14y ago

digitalengineer 14y ago

It actually refers to English soldiers fighting in the Dutch republic and drinking Dutch Gin before the battle. Time-frame: 17th century.

smackay 14y ago
There were also a large contingent of Scottish mercenaries serving in the Low Countries, see http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-5599.html http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-5599.html http://www.irss.uoguelph.ca/article/view/635/1056 http://www.irss.uoguelph.ca/article/view/635/1056 It's not clear from the sources whether they also needed a stiff drink before going into battle ;)

kahawe 14y ago

Just because certain expressions might still be used today and might not be on the fore-front of racism awareness does not make them any less racist. But you are right, the article had it wrong: > Originally the phrase 'Dutch courage' referred to the courage that results from indulgence in Dutch gin (jenever), but 'Dutch courage' can also refer to the gin itself. [...] Because of the effects of Dutch gin English soldiers fighting in the Dutch Republic in the 17th century apparently called the drink "Dutch Courage". So it never actually referred to the people.

leoedin 14y ago
This presents an interesting point of consideration. If a saying has its roots in racism, is it still racist if its applied centures later to a completely different context? I'd argue that even if "Dutch courage" was originally in some way racist against the dutch, the racist intent has been stripped away by time. Dutch courage isn't a racist saying at this point, it's just a universally recognised expression for substance-induced courage. A bit of googling reveals that there's quite a lot of expression with racist roots that we use all the time in different contexts.[1] [1]: It is a cracked article, but it makes some valid points: http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-every-day.html http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-...
- jules 14y ago
  Regardless of the origins, if an expression is applied to a different context, it might still cause subconscious associations to form in the human brain. If you hear "Dutch courage" often enough, you might subconsciously start to link the Dutch to cowardice. For a more modern example take the word "gay". It originally meant "happy". Then it meant "homosexual". As a result of that second meaning large numbers of people use the word as a synonym for "unlikable" or "bad". If somebody uses the word in a context like "that movie is gay", that reinforces the connection between the concept "bad" and the concept "homosexual". Therefore what's important is not the origins of a word, but its current associations and effects: "my car was vandalized" is OK but "that movie is gay" is not.
  - shardling 14y ago
    >As a result of that second meaning large numbers of people use the word as a synonym for "unlikable" or "bad". It is possible that this is kind like how the word bad itself was derived! (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bad http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bad) >a mystery word with no apparent relatives in other languages. Possibly from Old English derogatory term bæddel and its diminutive bædling "effeminate man, hermaphrodite, pederast"
    - twerquie 14y ago
robbiep 14y ago
Random comment: I went to the Bols brewing company tour in Amsterdam last week, which invented the first Geniever, which the English later turned into gin - oh my god is it something that takes some acclimatising to. Too much juniper berries! Very much an acquired taste

SideburnsOfDoom 14y ago

> "racism" ... isn't really correct. Dutch courage has been an expression for alcohol-induced courage for centuries. Right, it is centuries-old racism. Only 3 centuries though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Dutch_Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Dutch_Wars

neumann_alfred 14y ago
Nah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_courage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_courage
leoedin 14y ago
But in the context, it wasn't actually racist. It is not racist to suggest that cocaine usage makes an individual more courageous, and given that the accepted (and still accepted) saying for inebriation-related courage is Dutch courage, it wasn't racist to say that cocaine gave shy individuals dutch courage. Perhaps the expression has its origins in racism, but centuries later and without that original context, I'd argue that its no longer a racist expression. It was of course racist for Dr Ed to suggest that somehow the issue was only with black people, but that's unrelated to the use of the expression dutch courage.

hencq 14y ago

That was the joke.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

tokenadult 14y ago

There was a war between England and the Netherlands centuries ago that resulted in terms like "Dutch treat," "Dutch uncle," "Dutch courage," and so on. A personal website based in the Netherlands http://homepages.cwi.nl/~sjoerd/dutch.html http://homepages.cwi.nl/~sjoerd/dutch.html helpfully collects many of those terms, but it seems that the author of the website hasn't read the same book about word and phrase origins I read many years ago (I'm sorry I don't remember which specific book it was, as I read many books on that topic) that explains that those terms entered the English language, along with many others that are now obsolete, during the war. I have a lot of Dutch friends (Dutch nationals in the United States on work-related visas) because of my children's involvement in soccer. The long-ago war between England and the Netherlands is now, er, water over the dam, and indeed one of my Dutch friends has an English wife. So the origin of these expressions is largely forgotten, but, yes, the phrases originated in a wartime contempt for Dutch people among the English.

dirktheman 14y ago
It's funny how there are a lot of expressions with the word 'dutch' in it with a negative connotation. I'm Dutch, and I can't think of any expression with the word 'Engels' in it, both with positive or negative connotation.
- nikatwork 14y ago
  In Australia, we have the "dutch oven", which is a childish gag involving flatulence. I have no idea how this is connected to the Dutch. Then again, in the 80s here everyone made racist Irish jokes, but now they all pretend to be part Irish as it's trendy. (Disclaimer: I actually am part Irish). People are weird.
  - dmayle 14y ago
    Sure, but that one stems from a cast iron pot called the Dutch oven (called so because the Dutch excelled at making them). They're cast iron puts that you put something into, and often seal under a layer of hot ash for cooking. The childish gag involves sealing someone under to 'cook', just like you would with a Dutch oven.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]