4 ms·

I am said to suffer depression myself, which BTW I would deny as I would say its "realism", but I really have an issue with it being described as an "illness".

by alan_cx 14y ago

I am said to suffer depression myself, which BTW I would deny as I would say its "realism", but I really have an issue with it being described as an "illness". It seems to be that this definition is more about giving depression PR parity with actual illnesses, rather than a correct label. Its like the public will accept an "illness" as real, but a psychological issues as not real. There for making the public see depression as "illness" helps get support. See what I mean? From what I can make out, depression is a state of mind. Its a psychological thing. Ie, its a sort of loop people get themselves in to. That, to me, is not an illness. Not more so than arrogance, confidence or anger. Its an emotion. Is love an illness too? I realise that can be debated, but I don't think its helpful to redefine things for PR reasons. To me that cheapens it. I'm not saying depression is there for less valid, clearly its as debilitating as what I would think of as real "illness", if not more so, but I do roll my eyes and switch off every time I hear the word "illness" appropriated for things that aren't really "illnesses". As I say, the lack of the word illness doesn't, to me, make it less serious. To me, using that word is not necessary, it just blurs the lines and can put people off caring. It make it sound exaggerated or a bit "me too". Should add that I do understand that there are different types of depression. Perhaps using the single word depression to cover all cases is more the problem that the word "illness". I'm by no means unsympathetic, I know how it can effect people. I've seen the results of suicide. Hell, my mum's other half had to cut the bloke down while the wife screamed in the street. But I worry that re-defining things puts the general population off. No idea if these definitions are different each side of the Atlantic. Heh, no idea if its just me who thinks this either!!!

wisty 14y ago
> I am said to suffer depression myself, which BTW I would deny as I would say its "realism", but I really have an issue with it being described as an "illness". There's a difference between being cynical, and being depressed. Clinical depression crosses through to the other side, where everything seems unreasonably bad.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Sometimes people get down or get "the blues" but this is something very much different from major clinical depression. Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's not just a feeling or an emotion, it's a fundamental change to the way your brain works. And episodes of major depression can last for years, even decades.
- Meai 14y ago
  And somehow a chemical imbalance in the brain cannot be achieved by human behavior? The brain constantly adapts and changes to outside stimuli. Why would it be impossible to create depression from outside stimuli? I'm not trying to marginalize the illnesses of other people, but let's try to have a more varied approach than "no it's in the brain and they are born with it"
  - cookiecaper 14y ago
    It's obvious to anyone who's being honest that many depressive episodes that get labeled "clinical depression" are triggered by major life events like the death of a loved one and therefore there is at least some psychological element involved. The pharmaceutical companies are interested in convincing everyone that it is purely physical and therefore requires chemical delivery packages to ever have a hope of overcoming, but an honest analysis demonstrably dismantles this idea. Sometimes you have to be willing to look past the studies and trials bought and paid for by drug companies, recognize that every published study, in any field, is complex and flawed, and be willing to admit what's plainly visible even if there an intelligentsia (also purchased) standing by to aggressively shout you down and claim that their fancy documents allow them to define reality and that any naysayers should be ostracized and cast out. It's kind of funny that this same intelligentsia has now latched onto "bullying" as a pet issue, since it's basically been their MO for many years. Almost all progress gained by this group is gained by shaming less articulate and/or ballsy persons into submission.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical imbalance in the brain. If this is the case, there should be a chemical test to determine whether a person suffers from it. Does such a test exist? I'm unaware of it, but I'd love to read more. (I'm not asking if it's clinically usable, but merely whether the specific chemicals and levels are known. If they are not known, then "chemical imbalance" is merely a hypothesis.)
  - larve 14y ago
noonespecial 14y ago
There's something to keep in mind. You are your brain and your brain is you. You're not some sort of cloud of abstract disconnected thoughts. The "loop" you speak of causes real physical changes to a real physical thing (so do traumatic brain injuries which can cause depression, btw). It doesn't really matter how the changes start or take place, once they are far enough under way it becomes impossible to quickly undo them. It can be and is cured with drugs, and rehabilitation therapy and it takes time. The cure is also a physical change. Sounds pretty disease-like to me.
igravious 14y ago
I see what you mean but I think you need to clarify your concepts. After you do this you may see things differently. Not all "mental states" are created equal. For instance you mention arrogance and confidence. These are are attitudes, or personality traits really, not emotions. Love is similarly not strictly an emotion when you think about it, it's a disposition - we are in love, but we get angry or get sad, we don't get 'love'. Depression, someone mentioned elsewhere is like a filter, or as someone else mentioned is like having a part of you dead inside, the part that makes life bearable, the part that provides resilience to the unforgiving nature of this world we live. One gets depressed but it lasts and lasts, anger bu contrast is fleeting, so are most other emotions. Depression usually is accompanied by a broken sleep routine, persistent negative thoughts, morbid thoughts, a lack of self-esteem, an inability to remember that life has its ups as well as its downs. Perhaps "illness" is not the right word but it certainly seems like a profound psychological disturbance, a psychological illness. When we truly have a 100% neuro-scientific of whatever it is we'll be able to use the right terms but for now "illness" may be the best term we have, so we may as well use it.
igravious 14y ago
I see what you mean but I think you need to clarify your concepts. After you do this you may see things differently. (Note by the way that when people say 'depression' here I imagine that they are talking about 'clinical depression'.) Not all "mental states" are created equal. For instance you mention arrogance and confidence. These are are attitudes, or personality traits really, not emotions. Love is similarly not strictly an emotion when you think about it, it's a disposition - we fall in and out of and _are_ in love, but we _get_ angry or get sad, we don't _get_ love. Depression, someone mentioned elsewhere is like a filter, or as someone else mentioned is like having a part of you dead inside, the part that makes life bearable, the part that provides resilience to the sufferer against the unforgiving nature of this world we live, joy for life is snuffed out. One gets depressed but it lasts and lasts, anger by contrast is usually fleeting, so are most other emotions. Depression usually is accompanied by a broken sleep routine, persistent negative thoughts, morbid thoughts, a lack of self-esteem, an inability to remember that life has its ups as well as its downs. Clinical depression wrecks lives. Perhaps "illness" is not the right word but it certainly seems like a profound psychological disturbance, a psychological illness. When we truly have a 100% neuro-scientific of whatever it is we'll be able to use the right terms but for now "illness" may be the best term we have, so we may as well use it.

by alan_cx 14y ago

wisty 14y ago

> I am said to suffer depression myself, which BTW I would deny as I would say its "realism", but I really have an issue with it being described as an "illness". There's a difference between being cynical, and being depressed. Clinical depression crosses through to the other side, where everything seems unreasonably bad.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Sometimes people get down or get "the blues" but this is something very much different from major clinical depression. Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's not just a feeling or an emotion, it's a fundamental change to the way your brain works. And episodes of major depression can last for years, even decades.

Meai 14y ago
And somehow a chemical imbalance in the brain cannot be achieved by human behavior? The brain constantly adapts and changes to outside stimuli. Why would it be impossible to create depression from outside stimuli? I'm not trying to marginalize the illnesses of other people, but let's try to have a more varied approach than "no it's in the brain and they are born with it"
- cookiecaper 14y ago
  It's obvious to anyone who's being honest that many depressive episodes that get labeled "clinical depression" are triggered by major life events like the death of a loved one and therefore there is at least some psychological element involved. The pharmaceutical companies are interested in convincing everyone that it is purely physical and therefore requires chemical delivery packages to ever have a hope of overcoming, but an honest analysis demonstrably dismantles this idea. Sometimes you have to be willing to look past the studies and trials bought and paid for by drug companies, recognize that every published study, in any field, is complex and flawed, and be willing to admit what's plainly visible even if there an intelligentsia (also purchased) standing by to aggressively shout you down and claim that their fancy documents allow them to define reality and that any naysayers should be ostracized and cast out. It's kind of funny that this same intelligentsia has now latched onto "bullying" as a pet issue, since it's basically been their MO for many years. Almost all progress gained by this group is gained by shaming less articulate and/or ballsy persons into submission.
yummyfajitas 14y ago
Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical imbalance in the brain. If this is the case, there should be a chemical test to determine whether a person suffers from it. Does such a test exist? I'm unaware of it, but I'd love to read more. (I'm not asking if it's clinically usable, but merely whether the specific chemicals and levels are known. If they are not known, then "chemical imbalance" is merely a hypothesis.)
- larve 14y ago

noonespecial 14y ago

There's something to keep in mind. You are your brain and your brain is you. You're not some sort of cloud of abstract disconnected thoughts. The "loop" you speak of causes real physical changes to a real physical thing (so do traumatic brain injuries which can cause depression, btw). It doesn't really matter how the changes start or take place, once they are far enough under way it becomes impossible to quickly undo them. It can be and is cured with drugs, and rehabilitation therapy and it takes time. The cure is also a physical change. Sounds pretty disease-like to me.

igravious 14y ago

I see what you mean but I think you need to clarify your concepts. After you do this you may see things differently. Not all "mental states" are created equal. For instance you mention arrogance and confidence. These are are attitudes, or personality traits really, not emotions. Love is similarly not strictly an emotion when you think about it, it's a disposition - we are in love, but we get angry or get sad, we don't get 'love'. Depression, someone mentioned elsewhere is like a filter, or as someone else mentioned is like having a part of you dead inside, the part that makes life bearable, the part that provides resilience to the unforgiving nature of this world we live. One gets depressed but it lasts and lasts, anger bu contrast is fleeting, so are most other emotions. Depression usually is accompanied by a broken sleep routine, persistent negative thoughts, morbid thoughts, a lack of self-esteem, an inability to remember that life has its ups as well as its downs. Perhaps "illness" is not the right word but it certainly seems like a profound psychological disturbance, a psychological illness. When we truly have a 100% neuro-scientific of whatever it is we'll be able to use the right terms but for now "illness" may be the best term we have, so we may as well use it.

igravious 14y ago

I see what you mean but I think you need to clarify your concepts. After you do this you may see things differently. (Note by the way that when people say 'depression' here I imagine that they are talking about 'clinical depression'.) Not all "mental states" are created equal. For instance you mention arrogance and confidence. These are are attitudes, or personality traits really, not emotions. Love is similarly not strictly an emotion when you think about it, it's a disposition - we fall in and out of and _are_ in love, but we _get_ angry or get sad, we don't _get_ love. Depression, someone mentioned elsewhere is like a filter, or as someone else mentioned is like having a part of you dead inside, the part that makes life bearable, the part that provides resilience to the sufferer against the unforgiving nature of this world we live, joy for life is snuffed out. One gets depressed but it lasts and lasts, anger by contrast is usually fleeting, so are most other emotions. Depression usually is accompanied by a broken sleep routine, persistent negative thoughts, morbid thoughts, a lack of self-esteem, an inability to remember that life has its ups as well as its downs. Clinical depression wrecks lives. Perhaps "illness" is not the right word but it certainly seems like a profound psychological disturbance, a psychological illness. When we truly have a 100% neuro-scientific of whatever it is we'll be able to use the right terms but for now "illness" may be the best term we have, so we may as well use it.