8 ms·

Dream on. Java ecosystems have left you guys by 10k miles.

_stephan 14y ago
I'm curious, what Java IDE is 10K miles ahead of Visual Studio 2012/C# in your experience? Have you recently used VS with C#?
- mdkess 14y ago
  Haven't used 2012, but I think that IntelliJ IDEA is much better than VS 2010, anyway. Not to knock on 2010, but IDEA is pretty amazing.
  - Rastafarian 14y ago
    There's a VS plugin from the company that makes IDEA, called Resharper. Resharper + VS >> IDEA :D
  - steeve 14y ago
    Sorry but I don't share your view. I am using IDEA everyday (Python). It's great, but it's a HUGE memory and CPU hog (although IDEA 12 is much better). I always lament VS...
    - brass9 14y ago
      What's stopping you from using VS with PTVS? http://pytools.codeplex.com/ http://pytools.codeplex.com/ I am a heavy-duty user of both PyCharm/PhpStorm and VS myself.
      - steeve 14y ago
        Because I don't like doing Python on Windows
- Raz0rblade 14y ago
  Java just doesn't scale, if you want fast code you wont use java. C++ one of the best, and for quick development c#, you can always invoke C++ libs in C# anyway and both are supported in visual studio. If your into webdevelopment even there java is slow.. despite it has some fun libs, but most people use them because their lazy programmers, a good programmer wont rely that much on much external libs
  - fadzlan 14y ago
    Are you saying those c# devs who use C++ libs are okay but Java devs who use Java libs are lazy simply because they use Java? So a good programmer reinvent the wheel whenever he can?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - ElliotH 14y ago
    Twitter uses Java. It seems to survive major events fine these days. I'd say it scales reasonably. You also have to take into account huge enterprise deployments. As for 'fast' it really depends what you mean. Nobody's going to dispute that running a compiled application written in C is going to beat the pants off anything running on top of a VM, but is that speed factor important all of the time? Of course it's not. Most of the time a short wait is perfectly tolerable in exchange for the assistance in writing correct code that languages like Java can provide.
- edwinnathaniel 14y ago
  Have you ever used Eclipse with various Maven plugin? (and any source control plugins: SVN, GIT, Mercurial, etc). Thing is, Eclipse/IntelliJ plugin ecosystems are far richer and waaay more cost effective (and powerful) than VS.NET plugin ecosystems. I know I keep pointing to Maven but Maven alone is a huge reason why .NET is left to dust.
SideburnsOfDoom 14y ago
In what way? What things are you comparing? All I know is that the next version of Java will have features inspired by the last version of c# http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2011-September/003936.html http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2011-Septe...
- edwinnathaniel 14y ago
  C# tools and libraries have been inspired by Java since the inception. I'll give C# a +1 for lambda/functional feature but the rest does not equal +1. MSBuild -> Ant NuGET -> Ivy DoesNotExist -> Maven (don't forget to count maven plugins). NHibernate, Log4Net, etc -> inspired by its Java counterpart. How about sane deployment/packaging system? WAR, JAR, EAR push to App Server (tomcat, glassfish, etc). Not so easy with IIS. I argue that Java open source library is far richer than .NET (no hadoop, no hbase, no cassandra, nor GWT)
  - JonoW 14y ago
    Regarding deployment/packaging, there is MsDeploy for that. You can deploy files, IIS settings, db scripts, registry settings from a sip package
  - charlieflowers 14y ago
    But if you talk language, Java has never held a candle to C#. The original C# language and virtual machine was inspired by Java. Then, C# got: * Better generics * lambda expressions * the yield keyword and compiler magic for iterators * explicit interface implementation (rarely needed, but very well thought-out for when you need it) * LINQ!!! * Type inference * Dynamic keyword (I'm forgetting some things, it's late). Anders has guided the C# language brilliantly ... Java has been outpaced at every step of the way. So many somewhat radical features have been added to C#, and from my standpoint, every single one of them was very well-done.
    - edwinnathaniel 14y ago
      Language alone does not mean tons of productivity gain. Building software requires more than just syntatic sugar. C# has all these features yet I have never seen killer tools that changed the .net landscape like Rails did with Ruby. While I would not call those language features smoke and mirror, I argue that they are merely nice to have and not ground nor thought provoking. At the end of the day, Java ecosystem still move forward way faster than .net. Spring, cloudera, datastax, alfresco, liferay, ehcache, jboss, tomcat, Embedded server like Jetty, and other great, free, mature, serious, and open source tools are available at our disposal vs taking to sales rep to buy licenses, which are a common activity in .net world.
orf 14y ago
I attempted to write a simple web project in Java to learn it. I haven't used Java before, I normally use Python for web stuff and C# for other misc stuff. It was hell. I installed JetBeans IDEA quickly enough, but it went downhill from there. My AntiVirus (Kaspersky) fucked with Java 7's networking meaning it couldn't connect to anything, so it took an hour and a lot of googling to fix that. Next step: make a struts2 project. Wait, maven doesn't like the archtype IDEA gives it so it explodes and doesn't install it. Ok, do that by hand. Next install a webserver, which one to choose? Install one, doesn't work with IDEA - have to install an earlier version. Ok. Finally got a blank project up. Read the docs for struts2, brain hurts, uninstall everything, fire up VS 2012 and write the whole thing in C# and run it on mono. Easy.
- mbell 14y ago
  I don't see what this has to do with Java vs C#, it's a Struts 2 vs ASP MVC (presumably) debate. Struts sucks so there is no surprise in the outcome.
- edwinnathaniel 14y ago
  That sums up non-professional non-real-life project. Sorry to say this but your particular example does not count for "productivity gain" discussion.
brass9 14y ago
JVM ecosystem may be ahead of .net, but on the language front Java doesn't hold a candle against C#.
darklajid 14y ago
So I recalled correctly that you already argued that Java's the best thing since sliced bread recently [1]. Apart from the low jab in this particular line, why's Java related to VS, VS features and the .Net eco system? Language wars are boring. 1: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098006 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098006

I'm curious, what Java IDE is 10K miles ahead of Visual Studio 2012/C# in your experience? Have you recently used VS with C#?

mdkess 14y ago
Haven't used 2012, but I think that IntelliJ IDEA is much better than VS 2010, anyway. Not to knock on 2010, but IDEA is pretty amazing.
- Rastafarian 14y ago
  There's a VS plugin from the company that makes IDEA, called Resharper. Resharper + VS >> IDEA :D
- steeve 14y ago
  Sorry but I don't share your view. I am using IDEA everyday (Python). It's great, but it's a HUGE memory and CPU hog (although IDEA 12 is much better). I always lament VS...
  - brass9 14y ago
    What's stopping you from using VS with PTVS? http://pytools.codeplex.com/ http://pytools.codeplex.com/ I am a heavy-duty user of both PyCharm/PhpStorm and VS myself.
    - steeve 14y ago
      Because I don't like doing Python on Windows
Raz0rblade 14y ago
Java just doesn't scale, if you want fast code you wont use java. C++ one of the best, and for quick development c#, you can always invoke C++ libs in C# anyway and both are supported in visual studio. If your into webdevelopment even there java is slow.. despite it has some fun libs, but most people use them because their lazy programmers, a good programmer wont rely that much on much external libs
- fadzlan 14y ago
  Are you saying those c# devs who use C++ libs are okay but Java devs who use Java libs are lazy simply because they use Java? So a good programmer reinvent the wheel whenever he can?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- ElliotH 14y ago
  Twitter uses Java. It seems to survive major events fine these days. I'd say it scales reasonably. You also have to take into account huge enterprise deployments. As for 'fast' it really depends what you mean. Nobody's going to dispute that running a compiled application written in C is going to beat the pants off anything running on top of a VM, but is that speed factor important all of the time? Of course it's not. Most of the time a short wait is perfectly tolerable in exchange for the assistance in writing correct code that languages like Java can provide.
edwinnathaniel 14y ago
Have you ever used Eclipse with various Maven plugin? (and any source control plugins: SVN, GIT, Mercurial, etc). Thing is, Eclipse/IntelliJ plugin ecosystems are far richer and waaay more cost effective (and powerful) than VS.NET plugin ecosystems. I know I keep pointing to Maven but Maven alone is a huge reason why .NET is left to dust.

SideburnsOfDoom 14y ago

In what way? What things are you comparing? All I know is that the next version of Java will have features inspired by the last version of c# http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2011-September/003936.html http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2011-Septe...

edwinnathaniel 14y ago
C# tools and libraries have been inspired by Java since the inception. I'll give C# a +1 for lambda/functional feature but the rest does not equal +1. MSBuild -> Ant NuGET -> Ivy DoesNotExist -> Maven (don't forget to count maven plugins). NHibernate, Log4Net, etc -> inspired by its Java counterpart. How about sane deployment/packaging system? WAR, JAR, EAR push to App Server (tomcat, glassfish, etc). Not so easy with IIS. I argue that Java open source library is far richer than .NET (no hadoop, no hbase, no cassandra, nor GWT)
- JonoW 14y ago
  Regarding deployment/packaging, there is MsDeploy for that. You can deploy files, IIS settings, db scripts, registry settings from a sip package
- charlieflowers 14y ago
  But if you talk language, Java has never held a candle to C#. The original C# language and virtual machine was inspired by Java. Then, C# got: * Better generics * lambda expressions * the yield keyword and compiler magic for iterators * explicit interface implementation (rarely needed, but very well thought-out for when you need it) * LINQ!!! * Type inference * Dynamic keyword (I'm forgetting some things, it's late). Anders has guided the C# language brilliantly ... Java has been outpaced at every step of the way. So many somewhat radical features have been added to C#, and from my standpoint, every single one of them was very well-done.
  - edwinnathaniel 14y ago
    Language alone does not mean tons of productivity gain. Building software requires more than just syntatic sugar. C# has all these features yet I have never seen killer tools that changed the .net landscape like Rails did with Ruby. While I would not call those language features smoke and mirror, I argue that they are merely nice to have and not ground nor thought provoking. At the end of the day, Java ecosystem still move forward way faster than .net. Spring, cloudera, datastax, alfresco, liferay, ehcache, jboss, tomcat, Embedded server like Jetty, and other great, free, mature, serious, and open source tools are available at our disposal vs taking to sales rep to buy licenses, which are a common activity in .net world.

orf 14y ago

I attempted to write a simple web project in Java to learn it. I haven't used Java before, I normally use Python for web stuff and C# for other misc stuff. It was hell. I installed JetBeans IDEA quickly enough, but it went downhill from there. My AntiVirus (Kaspersky) fucked with Java 7's networking meaning it couldn't connect to anything, so it took an hour and a lot of googling to fix that. Next step: make a struts2 project. Wait, maven doesn't like the archtype IDEA gives it so it explodes and doesn't install it. Ok, do that by hand. Next install a webserver, which one to choose? Install one, doesn't work with IDEA - have to install an earlier version. Ok. Finally got a blank project up. Read the docs for struts2, brain hurts, uninstall everything, fire up VS 2012 and write the whole thing in C# and run it on mono. Easy.

mbell 14y ago
I don't see what this has to do with Java vs C#, it's a Struts 2 vs ASP MVC (presumably) debate. Struts sucks so there is no surprise in the outcome.
edwinnathaniel 14y ago
That sums up non-professional non-real-life project. Sorry to say this but your particular example does not count for "productivity gain" discussion.

brass9 14y ago

JVM ecosystem may be ahead of .net, but on the language front Java doesn't hold a candle against C#.

darklajid 14y ago

So I recalled correctly that you already argued that Java's the best thing since sliced bread recently [1]. Apart from the low jab in this particular line, why's Java related to VS, VS features and the .Net eco system? Language wars are boring. 1: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098006 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098006