8 ms·
As a (now former) long time Window developer, and even though people like to bash on it, I still think VS (>2003) is the best god damn IDE I've ever used. And
by steeve 14y ago
As a (now former) long time Window developer, and even though people like to bash on it, I still think VS (>2003) is the best god damn IDE I've ever used.
And with .NET it leaves everyone in the dust, IMHO.
- edwinnathaniel 14y agoDream on. Java ecosystems have left you guys by 10k miles.
- _stephan 14y agoI'm curious, what Java IDE is 10K miles ahead of Visual Studio 2012/C# in your experience? Have you recently used VS with C#?
- mdkess 14y agoHaven't used 2012, but I think that IntelliJ IDEA is much better than VS 2010, anyway. Not to knock on 2010, but IDEA is pretty amazing.
- Rastafarian 14y agoThere's a VS plugin from the company that makes IDEA, called Resharper. Resharper + VS >> IDEA :D
- steeve 14y agoSorry but I don't share your view. I am using IDEA everyday (Python). It's great, but it's a HUGE memory and CPU hog (although IDEA 12 is much better). I always lament VS...
- Raz0rblade 14y agoJava just doesn't scale, if you want fast code you wont use java. C++ one of the best, and for quick development c#, you can always invoke C++ libs in C# anyway and both are supported in visual studio. If your into webdevelopment even there java is slow.. despite it has some fun libs, but most people use them because their lazy programmers, a good programmer wont rely that much on much external libs
- fadzlan 14y agoAre you saying those c# devs who use C++ libs are okay but Java devs who use Java libs are lazy simply because they use Java? So a good programmer reinvent the wheel whenever he can?
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- ElliotH 14y agoTwitter uses Java. It seems to survive major events fine these days. I'd say it scales reasonably. You also have to take into account huge enterprise deployments. As for 'fast' it really depends what you mean. Nobody's going to dispute that running a compiled application written in C is going to beat the pants off anything running on top of a VM, but is that speed factor important all of the time? Of course it's not. Most of the time a short wait is perfectly tolerable in exchange for the assistance in writing correct code that languages like Java can provide.
- edwinnathaniel 14y agoHave you ever used Eclipse with various Maven plugin? (and any source control plugins: SVN, GIT, Mercurial, etc). Thing is, Eclipse/IntelliJ plugin ecosystems are far richer and waaay more cost effective (and powerful) than VS.NET plugin ecosystems. I know I keep pointing to Maven but Maven alone is a huge reason why .NET is left to dust.
- SideburnsOfDoom 14y agoIn what way? What things are you comparing? All I know is that the next version of Java will have features inspired by the last version of c# http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2011-September/003936.html http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2011-Septe...
- edwinnathaniel 14y agoC# tools and libraries have been inspired by Java since the inception. I'll give C# a +1 for lambda/functional feature but the rest does not equal +1. MSBuild -> Ant NuGET -> Ivy DoesNotExist -> Maven (don't forget to count maven plugins). NHibernate, Log4Net, etc -> inspired by its Java counterpart. How about sane deployment/packaging system? WAR, JAR, EAR push to App Server (tomcat, glassfish, etc). Not so easy with IIS. I argue that Java open source library is far richer than .NET (no hadoop, no hbase, no cassandra, nor GWT)
- JonoW 14y agoRegarding deployment/packaging, there is MsDeploy for that. You can deploy files, IIS settings, db scripts, registry settings from a sip package
- charlieflowers 14y agoBut if you talk language, Java has never held a candle to C#. The original C# language and virtual machine was inspired by Java. Then, C# got: * Better generics * lambda expressions * the yield keyword and compiler magic for iterators * explicit interface implementation (rarely needed, but very well thought-out for when you need it) * LINQ!!! * Type inference * Dynamic keyword (I'm forgetting some things, it's late). Anders has guided the C# language brilliantly ... Java has been outpaced at every step of the way. So many somewhat radical features have been added to C#, and from my standpoint, every single one of them was very well-done.
- edwinnathaniel 14y agoLanguage alone does not mean tons of productivity gain. Building software requires more than just syntatic sugar. C# has all these features yet I have never seen killer tools that changed the .net landscape like Rails did with Ruby. While I would not call those language features smoke and mirror, I argue that they are merely nice to have and not ground nor thought provoking. At the end of the day, Java ecosystem still move forward way faster than .net. Spring, cloudera, datastax, alfresco, liferay, ehcache, jboss, tomcat, Embedded server like Jetty, and other great, free, mature, serious, and open source tools are available at our disposal vs taking to sales rep to buy licenses, which are a common activity in .net world.
- orf 14y agoI attempted to write a simple web project in Java to learn it. I haven't used Java before, I normally use Python for web stuff and C# for other misc stuff. It was hell. I installed JetBeans IDEA quickly enough, but it went downhill from there. My AntiVirus (Kaspersky) fucked with Java 7's networking meaning it couldn't connect to anything, so it took an hour and a lot of googling to fix that. Next step: make a struts2 project. Wait, maven doesn't like the archtype IDEA gives it so it explodes and doesn't install it. Ok, do that by hand. Next install a webserver, which one to choose? Install one, doesn't work with IDEA - have to install an earlier version. Ok. Finally got a blank project up. Read the docs for struts2, brain hurts, uninstall everything, fire up VS 2012 and write the whole thing in C# and run it on mono. Easy.
- mbell 14y agoI don't see what this has to do with Java vs C#, it's a Struts 2 vs ASP MVC (presumably) debate. Struts sucks so there is no surprise in the outcome.
- edwinnathaniel 14y agoThat sums up non-professional non-real-life project. Sorry to say this but your particular example does not count for "productivity gain" discussion.
- brass9 14y agoJVM ecosystem may be ahead of .net, but on the language front Java doesn't hold a candle against C#.
- darklajid 14y agoSo I recalled correctly that you already argued that Java's the best thing since sliced bread recently [1]. Apart from the low jab in this particular line, why's Java related to VS, VS features and the .Net eco system? Language wars are boring. 1: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098006 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098006
- meaty 14y agoYou've obviously never suffered a large project. Crashes, memory gobbling, random debugger failures, glacial speed, lag, project configuration corruption, UI glitches, refusing to load projects, half complete refactoring operations, search/replace just stops, having to reset environment at least once a day, grey screen of death. And that's just the IDE. CLR is the only framework and language combo I've used which will quite happily just stop working with no human intervention one day. It's a bag of shit for me and I resent using it. For ref, I've been building software on windows since 1994 from win32 to wpf to asp.net to mvc to WCF. The only positive thing I can say is the money is good, but it's danger money.
- gfody 14y agosounds like you should get a new computer. 1994's a long time to go without at least a fresh install of windows - have you tried defragmenting your hard drive?
- meaty 14y agoI've got a nice Dell Precision dual 4 core 2.8ghz xeon, 32gb of ecc ram, 500gb sas 15k RAID, Samsung 840 pro scratch drive and quardro card. What am I doing to deserve this pain? My 5 year old Lenovo t61 is fine for ALL other tasks in all other languages.
- ComputerGuru 14y agoYes, agreed (having worked on middlish-big projects with maybe 40 VS projects for each solution, 45+ minute re-compile times (not from scratch) on the latest gen CPUs, etc) with several hundred million LoC but believe me, if you think that's bad, you don't want to see Eclipse/NetBeans/XCode/etc. with a project a thousandth of that size.
- tucaz 14y agoI know nothing about nothing, but having that many projects under the same solution its the biggest clue that you are doing something very wrong. Even if you have a reason to have 40 projects in what should looks like one solution you can still create various solutions files with just the subset of projects you need. No one works on 40 projects at the same time.
- papaf 14y agoI guess that taste in IDEs is a very personal thing. I am using Visual Studio 10 at the moment to do C++ coding and it is by far, and without question, the worst IDE I've ever used. I find it slow, buggy and quite unfriendly. My guess is that people pay money for plugins to get it fit for purpose. IDEs I prefer: Eclipse, Netbeans, IntelliJ, QtCreator
- tokipin 14y agoI agree just because of VsVim alone. :) http://visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/59ca71b3-a4a3-46ca-8fe1-0e90e3f79329 http://visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/59ca71b3-a4a3-...
- yareally 14y agoVS is the only large scale IDE I know of that refuses to add a search bar for options. Both Eclipse and Intellij IDEA both have it. Trying to deal with finding what you want in the myriad of options VS has is tedious. Also changing syntax colorings without something like resharper is also taxing.
- nathantotten 14y agoThis exists in 2012 now. http://www.dotnetspark.com/kb/5328-whats-new-search-options-visual-studio-2012.aspx http://www.dotnetspark.com/kb/5328-whats-new-search-options-...
- memoryfault 14y agoIt was also possible in 2010 via the quick access feature in the power tools extension. http://visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/d0d33361-18e2-46c0-8ff2-4adea1e34fef?SRC=Home http://visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/d0d33361-18e2-...
- yareally 14y agoThanks, I would have never guessed it was that sort of search in 2012. I would have figured the more intuitive option was to put it within the actual options area. Then again, I guess I should have known better with the way search is in the rest of the Win 8 UI (though I don't use Win 8 enough to instantly think of that, lol).
- artsrc 14y agoI change one line of C# in a unit test, and ask VS to run the unit test. It then spends 30 seconds building. This kills TDD and many other ways of exploratory development. This is not the case in any Java or Python IDE.