5 ms·

I'm not typically one to have artistic considerations ahead of business, but... It hurt to know that one of the leads from the sci-fi strategy epic 'Alpha Cent

I'm not typically one to have artistic considerations ahead of business, but... It hurt to know that one of the leads from the sci-fi strategy epic 'Alpha Centauri' was working at the place that made Farmville - a known sucker-magnet. It must have been soul-destroying. Good luck to him.

beaumartinez 14y ago
Just because the "artistic" values of those two games differ doesn't mean working on FarmVille was "soul destroying". FarmVille is a game with hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, with a constraint to make as much money as possible and keep current users coming back, and with fierce competition. Sounds like an interesting space to be in.
- Deestan 14y ago
  > make as much money as possible and keep current users coming back, and with fierce competition. This encourages antisocial and exploitative techniques, which many consider soul destroying.
- Goronmon 14y ago
  FarmVille is a game with hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, with a constraint to make as much money as possible and keep current users coming back, and with fierce competition. Sounds more like a casino than game development to me.
  - JonnieCache 14y ago
    Or an opium cartel.
    - nsomaru 14y ago
      <chuckle>... <gasp>, there's another level here: "life" itself.
      - jerf 14y ago
        Mmmmm... interesting thought, but I don't think I can agree that all life reduces to people exploiting other people's addictions, and wiping away the deliberate attempt to produce addictive games for money wipes away a fundamental part of the reason many of us have contempt for Zynga.
        nsomaru 14y ago
        Sir, A large portion of "Life" today consists of the process of creating desire for the unecessary (U) by association of these U's with basic human desires (sex, food et al.) Thus the economy is born and a constant insaitable need for growth, when conceivably in a different system for a global, connected, technologically advanced race such as ours, there could be plenty for all, and we could all be provided for. (Note (1) This smells of Utopia, I admit I don't know how we would deal with boredom -- perhaps via extraordinary expressions of the creative act?) (2) The point is that the current system is a paradigm, and to sustain itself must maintain separation of "have's" and "have nots", and thus must consist in some exploitation, lest the division be destroyed and the labour force caused to cease to exist. The only way such a labour force remains in check is that there most be "money" which is "earned" via a "job" and is "required" for the meeting of basic needs and thus is what makes you win in the "struggle for survival". )
        jerf 14y ago
        Even if I stipulated your point, which I don't, all Life is not economic transactions, either. And I don't think you established a connection to addictiveness either. (Your attempt requires me to agree with allowing you to decide what is "(un)necessary" for me and everybody else, which I do not concede.) Food, shelter, water, clothing, furniture, and the other human needs are not addictive. Even sex is generally not addictive.
        nsomaru 14y ago
        To you and RegEx, below: Good day, Sirs. Thank you for the compliment. I am sorry for the misunderstanding, and perhaps anything I may have said to offend. The misunderstanding, I believe, stems from the fact that we define addiction differently. This is a matter of philosophy and opinion, and unless you would entertain me there I fear we would be communicating as one German to an Aboriginal, that is, not at all. For what it is worth, I present my definition: For all objects and beings (X), addiction is that state whereby contact with X does not actually yield any utility (happiness, satisfaction, what ever you want to call it) but non-contact therewith is a source of discomfort. It's like an extrapolation of diminishing marginal utility, which, I must confess, I know little about. This definition of addiction is somewhat broad, but includes the narrower, more conventional versions, and contains a deep insight about human nature and the overcoming of addiction(s) in general. That is beyond the scope of this response. It is also based on personal reflection and experience, which conventional scientists would deem "anecdotal" or not "statistically significant", but to me, this is a valid source of knowledge, especially if you have a strong, logically consistent metaphysical system which presents isomorphisms, as it were, with your own experience of Reality. edit: Typo's
- Sharlin 14y ago
  Yes, interesting. Unfortunately, optimally fulfilling those constraints requires rather unethical means. Exploiting known vulnerabilities in human psychology is something I'd characterize as evil.
- incision 14y ago
  >Sounds like an interesting space to be in. Interesting use of interesting. The stuff you've used to qualify Farmville there would apply to directly to dealing in drugs, sex, weapons, money laundering - just about anything.
seivan 14y ago
Yeah I agree, that takes a toll on you.
TillE 14y ago
I don't understand why he went in the first place. I remember hearing about it at the time, and it's not like he would've been surprised at the kind of games Zynga was working on. They were known for it. I fear this "social" fad has wasted the time of a number of bright minds in the games industry. Has anything worthwhile and memorable come of it?
- Androsynth 14y ago
  I know a lot of middle aged women who use fv as the main method of keeping in touch with friends and family. Their games are addicting, but no more than WoW or LoL. Those are considered 'real games', but there is a lot of crossover in the addiction mechanics. This board hates Zynga a whole lot more than their customers do because we are not their customers. This board is the equivalent of someone from an older generation sneering with contempt as I spend 12 hours straight in a raid. My point is not to disparage this board, but to point out that anyone who plays modern video games shouldn't look down on casual games, because both have fully embraced addiction as a fundamental mechanic (as television did a long time ago, although it has recently upped its intensity as well). Zynga is devoid of any emotion or creativity and is only seeking to make money through addictive mechanics, but have you played any SOE or EA games lately?
  - cloudsteam 14y ago
    it is not the product but the methods which raised the ire
    - Androsynth 14y ago
      The product is the method. This is also true of MMOs, what would happen if you removed the xp bar from those games? The 'game' would practically cease to exist.
wmeredith 14y ago
Holy hell, I didn't know about the "Alpha Cenbtauri" connection. That was the first Scf-fi strategy game I ever played. It changed my life. Hopefully he's moving on to something better than Zynga.
notahacker 14y ago
I find the linked article in which he described what he was learning from working at Zynga illuminating: http://venturebeat.com/2010/02/18/zyngas-chief-designer-shares-tips-learned-from-social-games/ http://venturebeat.com/2010/02/18/zyngas-chief-designer-shar... Key points to take away: - We launch new games on insignificant fractions of our overall budget - Metrics help us figure out whether newly introduced features actually help us earn more. - Devising a way to "shame" users into playing more was our most effective recent new innovation.

beaumartinez 14y ago

Just because the "artistic" values of those two games differ doesn't mean working on FarmVille was "soul destroying". FarmVille is a game with hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, with a constraint to make as much money as possible and keep current users coming back, and with fierce competition. Sounds like an interesting space to be in.

Deestan 14y ago
> make as much money as possible and keep current users coming back, and with fierce competition. This encourages antisocial and exploitative techniques, which many consider soul destroying.
Goronmon 14y ago
FarmVille is a game with hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, with a constraint to make as much money as possible and keep current users coming back, and with fierce competition. Sounds more like a casino than game development to me.
- JonnieCache 14y ago
  Or an opium cartel.
  - nsomaru 14y ago
    <chuckle>... <gasp>, there's another level here: "life" itself.
    - jerf 14y ago
      Mmmmm... interesting thought, but I don't think I can agree that all life reduces to people exploiting other people's addictions, and wiping away the deliberate attempt to produce addictive games for money wipes away a fundamental part of the reason many of us have contempt for Zynga.
      - nsomaru 14y ago
        Sir, A large portion of "Life" today consists of the process of creating desire for the unecessary (U) by association of these U's with basic human desires (sex, food et al.) Thus the economy is born and a constant insaitable need for growth, when conceivably in a different system for a global, connected, technologically advanced race such as ours, there could be plenty for all, and we could all be provided for. (Note (1) This smells of Utopia, I admit I don't know how we would deal with boredom -- perhaps via extraordinary expressions of the creative act?) (2) The point is that the current system is a paradigm, and to sustain itself must maintain separation of "have's" and "have nots", and thus must consist in some exploitation, lest the division be destroyed and the labour force caused to cease to exist. The only way such a labour force remains in check is that there most be "money" which is "earned" via a "job" and is "required" for the meeting of basic needs and thus is what makes you win in the "struggle for survival". )
        jerf 14y ago
        Even if I stipulated your point, which I don't, all Life is not economic transactions, either. And I don't think you established a connection to addictiveness either. (Your attempt requires me to agree with allowing you to decide what is "(un)necessary" for me and everybody else, which I do not concede.) Food, shelter, water, clothing, furniture, and the other human needs are not addictive. Even sex is generally not addictive.
        nsomaru 14y ago
        To you and RegEx, below: Good day, Sirs. Thank you for the compliment. I am sorry for the misunderstanding, and perhaps anything I may have said to offend. The misunderstanding, I believe, stems from the fact that we define addiction differently. This is a matter of philosophy and opinion, and unless you would entertain me there I fear we would be communicating as one German to an Aboriginal, that is, not at all. For what it is worth, I present my definition: For all objects and beings (X), addiction is that state whereby contact with X does not actually yield any utility (happiness, satisfaction, what ever you want to call it) but non-contact therewith is a source of discomfort. It's like an extrapolation of diminishing marginal utility, which, I must confess, I know little about. This definition of addiction is somewhat broad, but includes the narrower, more conventional versions, and contains a deep insight about human nature and the overcoming of addiction(s) in general. That is beyond the scope of this response. It is also based on personal reflection and experience, which conventional scientists would deem "anecdotal" or not "statistically significant", but to me, this is a valid source of knowledge, especially if you have a strong, logically consistent metaphysical system which presents isomorphisms, as it were, with your own experience of Reality. edit: Typo's
Sharlin 14y ago
Yes, interesting. Unfortunately, optimally fulfilling those constraints requires rather unethical means. Exploiting known vulnerabilities in human psychology is something I'd characterize as evil.
incision 14y ago
>Sounds like an interesting space to be in. Interesting use of interesting. The stuff you've used to qualify Farmville there would apply to directly to dealing in drugs, sex, weapons, money laundering - just about anything.

seivan 14y ago

Yeah I agree, that takes a toll on you.

TillE 14y ago

I don't understand why he went in the first place. I remember hearing about it at the time, and it's not like he would've been surprised at the kind of games Zynga was working on. They were known for it. I fear this "social" fad has wasted the time of a number of bright minds in the games industry. Has anything worthwhile and memorable come of it?

Androsynth 14y ago
I know a lot of middle aged women who use fv as the main method of keeping in touch with friends and family. Their games are addicting, but no more than WoW or LoL. Those are considered 'real games', but there is a lot of crossover in the addiction mechanics. This board hates Zynga a whole lot more than their customers do because we are not their customers. This board is the equivalent of someone from an older generation sneering with contempt as I spend 12 hours straight in a raid. My point is not to disparage this board, but to point out that anyone who plays modern video games shouldn't look down on casual games, because both have fully embraced addiction as a fundamental mechanic (as television did a long time ago, although it has recently upped its intensity as well). Zynga is devoid of any emotion or creativity and is only seeking to make money through addictive mechanics, but have you played any SOE or EA games lately?
- cloudsteam 14y ago
  it is not the product but the methods which raised the ire
  - Androsynth 14y ago
    The product is the method. This is also true of MMOs, what would happen if you removed the xp bar from those games? The 'game' would practically cease to exist.

wmeredith 14y ago

Holy hell, I didn't know about the "Alpha Cenbtauri" connection. That was the first Scf-fi strategy game I ever played. It changed my life. Hopefully he's moving on to something better than Zynga.

notahacker 14y ago

I find the linked article in which he described what he was learning from working at Zynga illuminating: http://venturebeat.com/2010/02/18/zyngas-chief-designer-shares-tips-learned-from-social-games/ http://venturebeat.com/2010/02/18/zyngas-chief-designer-shar... Key points to take away: - We launch new games on insignificant fractions of our overall budget - Metrics help us figure out whether newly introduced features actually help us earn more. - Devising a way to "shame" users into playing more was our most effective recent new innovation.