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Blah blah, appeal to authority... It's too complicated for you... etc etc. More appeals to authority, and a plea to patiently wait for word from up on high that

Blah blah, appeal to authority... It's too complicated for you... etc etc. More appeals to authority, and a plea to patiently wait for word from up on high that they've figured out at last, whatever it was that they missed the first time. Some of what you said may be true, but it's also a typical thing one might say after any engineering (potential) disaster. I'm pleased that some persons with appropriate knowledge have spoken out and I hope that it will remove any pressure Boeing engineers may feel to give their battery issue less attention than it deserves. I have to say that if that's your best reasoning, I hope you stay far away from any life-safety critical engineering decisions for vehicles that I'm to set foot in.

ubernostrum 14y ago
I find it amusing that you are one-sidedly complaining about appeals to authority when so many comments, on both sides, in this thread boil down to "my preferred expert is better than your preferred expert".
- epo 14y ago
  Upvoted, to me Musk is being a publicity whore and scoring cheap hits over Boeing. I.e. his comments do not help us in advancing our understanding so can only be intended to publicise his own company's products.
  - fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
    He may well be. I can't say what is Musk's intent. What I can say, is that if Boeing handles their business properly, it won't make much difference what anyone has said or done this time next year.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Musk being a publicity whore has no relation to the safety of the batteries. The fact they catch fire during normal flight operation demonstrate they are not.
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  The difference is that, "my preferred expert" took the trouble to explain his reasoning which I will paraphrase as "Thermal runaway in Lithium batteries."
andyjohnson0 14y ago
The thing that will "remove any pressure Boeing engineers may feel to give their battery issue less attention than it deserves" is heat from the NTSB and FAA, not self-serving pronouncements by some guy who happens to run a couple of tiny (compared to Boeing) high-tech engineering companies.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  Companies (and their regulators) have frequently been shamed into doing what they should have in the first place by independent critics. Nader and automobiles as previously detailed, Rachel Carson and Silent Spring (ultimately resulting in the Clean Air and Clean Water acts and the EPA, created by Republican president Richard Nixon). Upton Sinclair and food processing. Wikipedia's Whistleblower article notes a few other interesting cases: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers
  - andyjohnson0 14y ago
    Context is important here. 1. Elon Musk is not a whistleblower. He didn't bring this issue to light at the risk of persecution by Boeing or the airlines. 2. He's also not an "independent critic" - he's a entrepreneur who runs an aerospace company that competes with Boeing's space activities, another company that makes cars powered using batteries, and has no history as a critic of aircraft design. 3. I'm not from the US, so I hadn't heard of Upton Sinclair, but Carson's and Nader's motivations for what they did came from a desire to protect the natural environment and promote social justice respectively. I don't think that comparable motivations can be ascribed to Elon Musk in this case.
    - dredmorbius 14y ago
      Musk definitely has a horse in the race. Still, he's independent to the extent that he's beholden to neither Boeing nor the NTSB/FAA. He's also critiquing Boeing on a specific technology on which he has substantial expertise and experience: lithium-ion battery storage. Including experience with aerospace implementations of that technology. My point was that your assertion that working within the system is sufficient to effect change is demonstrably false. As for businesses competing not only on dollars but mindshare and technological direction -- isn't that what the free market system is all about? Directed self-interest?

ubernostrum 14y ago

I find it amusing that you are one-sidedly complaining about appeals to authority when so many comments, on both sides, in this thread boil down to "my preferred expert is better than your preferred expert".

epo 14y ago
Upvoted, to me Musk is being a publicity whore and scoring cheap hits over Boeing. I.e. his comments do not help us in advancing our understanding so can only be intended to publicise his own company's products.
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  He may well be. I can't say what is Musk's intent. What I can say, is that if Boeing handles their business properly, it won't make much difference what anyone has said or done this time next year.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  Musk being a publicity whore has no relation to the safety of the batteries. The fact they catch fire during normal flight operation demonstrate they are not.
fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
The difference is that, "my preferred expert" took the trouble to explain his reasoning which I will paraphrase as "Thermal runaway in Lithium batteries."

andyjohnson0 14y ago

The thing that will "remove any pressure Boeing engineers may feel to give their battery issue less attention than it deserves" is heat from the NTSB and FAA, not self-serving pronouncements by some guy who happens to run a couple of tiny (compared to Boeing) high-tech engineering companies.

dredmorbius 14y ago
Companies (and their regulators) have frequently been shamed into doing what they should have in the first place by independent critics. Nader and automobiles as previously detailed, Rachel Carson and Silent Spring (ultimately resulting in the Clean Air and Clean Water acts and the EPA, created by Republican president Richard Nixon). Upton Sinclair and food processing. Wikipedia's Whistleblower article notes a few other interesting cases: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers
- andyjohnson0 14y ago
  Context is important here. 1. Elon Musk is not a whistleblower. He didn't bring this issue to light at the risk of persecution by Boeing or the airlines. 2. He's also not an "independent critic" - he's a entrepreneur who runs an aerospace company that competes with Boeing's space activities, another company that makes cars powered using batteries, and has no history as a critic of aircraft design. 3. I'm not from the US, so I hadn't heard of Upton Sinclair, but Carson's and Nader's motivations for what they did came from a desire to protect the natural environment and promote social justice respectively. I don't think that comparable motivations can be ascribed to Elon Musk in this case.
  - dredmorbius 14y ago
    Musk definitely has a horse in the race. Still, he's independent to the extent that he's beholden to neither Boeing nor the NTSB/FAA. He's also critiquing Boeing on a specific technology on which he has substantial expertise and experience: lithium-ion battery storage. Including experience with aerospace implementations of that technology. My point was that your assertion that working within the system is sufficient to effect change is demonstrably false. As for businesses competing not only on dollars but mindshare and technological direction -- isn't that what the free market system is all about? Directed self-interest?