9 ms·

Children of older fathers have lower IQs

18 points by ksvs 18y ago

sounddust 18y ago
I have always wondered - when reading articles like this - whether it would just be better to freeze one's sperm at age 20 and then save it for when you want to have a child. In fact, it might even be better to save sperm from age 14 or so to reduce even further the chance of generic mutation. I don't know if this is easy or even possible to do (or whether using frozen sperm brings its own complications), but it's worth researching further.
- whacked_new 18y ago
  I have wondered about this too, but I recall reading that sperm quality also varies with the current bodily state. Maybe the end of high school would be the best age. But it is a strange thought to have: you are essentially depositing unborn babies into a bank, and retrieving them when you decide you want them. To take it further, you could freeze enough sperm for 100 conceptions, then get a vasectomy. Which probably yields an even more efficient outcome, with stranger connotations.
  - pavel_lishin 18y ago
    My stepfather has said a few times that he wishes he had taken the "further" option. I'm not sure if I ever want kids, but something about freezing my sperm and getting a vasectomy worries me. A fire at the sperm bank, and my genetic legacy is lost forever. (Of course I could go in for a reversal, but those don't always take, etc., etc.)
- raganwald 18y ago
  Heinlein's book "Podkayne of Mars" describes couples marrying and freezing entire babies to be thawed out later when they are older, wealthier, and presumably wiser.
- delano 18y ago
  You don't need to wonder. You can do it and then forget about it until you're interested in it again.
ShabbyDoo 18y ago
I wonder if the study controlled for the selection bias inherent in the decisions of males of various ages to reproduce and in their preferences for mates. Presumably, 50 year-old men are not procreating with women their age. Do older men choose younger, but dumber women to mate with? Do dumber men end up having children later in life? Are 50 year-old men worse parents?
- dangoldin 18y ago
  Good point. They good control it by looking at IQ relationships of brothers potentially.
  - old-gregg 18y ago
    Pick a list of successful people you believe are intelligent. Uncheck those who don't have brothers/sisters. Then look if they're an older/younger kid in the family. I've done the exercise out of curiosity and it appears the article is correct: most famous programmers were older brothers.
    - gjm11 18y ago
      Also susceptible to other explanations. For instance, perhaps having a younger sibling to teach stuff to is good for your brain.
      - pavel_lishin 18y ago
        Yes, you'd really need siblings who came from the same parents, yet were separated at birth.
        dangoldin 18y ago
        Then you run into problems of other parents since they will have their own parenting style which will affect the IQ. I wonder if there's a big difference of the IQ in twins. If there is then the IQ difference of 3 in the article may not be all that significant. The ideal case would be children from the same parents that lived in the same town, went to the same schools, participated in the same activities, had similar friends, and a whole list of other factors. It would also be convenient to have there be more than 2 kids to see the quantitative meaning of "older" This may just be an indication of a first time parent spending a lot more effort on the first child or just having the resources to do so. During the early years the IQ of the first child is developed while there are fewer resources for the later children. On the other hand, younger parents may just be starting out and have fewer resources/experience to help them raise the child. You can also take a look at grandparents - younger parents will have a more active set of grandparents which may be contributing to this IQ boost as well. Too may unknowns here but an interesting topic.
ChrisMac 18y ago
As far as I know, a three point IQ difference doesn't have any practical effect. It may be statistically significant, but it's hardly a huge advantage to score three points higher than someone else.
hachiya 18y ago
With an average difference of only 3 IQ points that this study found, these children appear to be missing out on little with regards to intelligence. I would be more inclined to believe any differences in intelligence, if there really are any, are due to the environment in which the child was raised, rather than genetic advantages and disadvantages. In today's world, I would guess that children born to 50 year old men are being born into a family where the wife is not the father's first wife, and the father is not as likely to be as dedicated a father as the younger fathers plan to be. This is a sweeping generalization, but I would wager that for those 50 year-olds who are remarried (once, twice, or more), by the fact that they did not care to keep the family intact the first time (excluding cases where the wife died), these men and their current wives would be less likely to provide a nurturing environment compared to a young father. A sweeping generalization, but my gut feeling, based on the likely fact that many of those 50 year old fathers are remarried once, twice, or more, indicating to me that they are not as good a father as the SOME of the 20 year olds will be. Also, statistics on society's accepted geniuses do not seem to show a correlation between fathers' ages and the intelligence of the offspring. Here is a list I have compiled. IQ scores may be disputed, but the intelligence of these people generally are not. Genius IQ Father's age ------ -- ------------ Einstein about 160 31 Galileo 185 44 ========================================== Bobby Fischer 187 Likely father, Paul nemenyi: 48 Birth certificate father, Hans-Gerhardt Fischer: 35 http://www.nndb.com/people/455/000024383/ ========================================== Madame de Stael 180 33 Ludwig Wittgenstein 190 42 Blaise Pascal 195 35 Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz 205 49 John Stuart Mill 200 33 Emanuel Swedenborg 205 34 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe 210 39 As you can see, one of the highest IQ's, Leibniz's, had a father who as 49 years old. Einstein's, considered the lowest at 160, had a father of 31, the youngest in this list. So this is opposite the study's findings. However, I don't really see a correlation overall. With the study's difference of only 3 IQ points on average, I am inclined to believe that age makes no difference in the intelligence of their offspring, especially in those families that provide a nurturing environment, regardless of the parents' ages.
- unalone 18y ago
cosmo7 18y ago
Can we draft a law preventing journalists from trying to interpret statistics?
- tokenadult 18y ago
  First let's teach college teachers of statistics (who usually aren't statisticians) how to teach statistics. One of my favorite articles on that subject http://statland.org/MAAFIXED.PDF http://statland.org/MAAFIXED.PDF is so thoughtful that I reread it from time to time just to savor the language. Another good article about how to teach statistics http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=uclastat/cts/tise http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10... is helpful in guiding people who have studied statistics before to rethink what they think they have learned. It is by a very eminent statistician.
tokenadult 18y ago
It looks like several journalists need to read the new book Intelligence and How to Get It by Richard E. Nisbett, http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/winter09/006505.htm http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/winter09/006505.htm which I am reading just now. Nisbett reviews the best recent literature on IQ testing and what it means, and punches holes in the fallacious reasoning used by many advocates of a strong hereditarian view of influence on IQ. A really good book for background reading on IQ testing and how it works is IQ and Human Intelligence by N. J. Mackintosh, http://www.amazon.com/IQ-Human-Intelligence-N-Mackintosh/dp/019852367X/ http://www.amazon.com/IQ-Human-Intelligence-N-Mackintosh/dp/... which includes very clear explanations of how IQ tests have developed historically, how they are currently constructed and validated, and what we still don't know about human rationality despite a century of IQ testing.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
mhb 18y ago
The same study found that children's IQ was marginally higher if they were born to older mothers, a finding scientists have put down to those women spending more time caring for and nurturing their infants. Maybe younger fathers are more nurturing.
vermontdevil 18y ago
This is purely anecdotal but my grandfather was 60 when my dad was born. By all accounts my dad was a highly intelligent man who achieved well in the Navy despite not finishing high school (needed money).
- huherto 18y ago
  On the anecdotal side. A friend was born when her father was 75. Some people say she is a genius (clearly an exaggeration) but she s smart any way.
known 18y ago
You are a product of your environment. --Clement Stone

18 points by ksvs 18y ago

I have always wondered - when reading articles like this - whether it would just be better to freeze one's sperm at age 20 and then save it for when you want to have a child. In fact, it might even be better to save sperm from age 14 or so to reduce even further the chance of generic mutation. I don't know if this is easy or even possible to do (or whether using frozen sperm brings its own complications), but it's worth researching further.

whacked_new 18y ago
I have wondered about this too, but I recall reading that sperm quality also varies with the current bodily state. Maybe the end of high school would be the best age. But it is a strange thought to have: you are essentially depositing unborn babies into a bank, and retrieving them when you decide you want them. To take it further, you could freeze enough sperm for 100 conceptions, then get a vasectomy. Which probably yields an even more efficient outcome, with stranger connotations.
- pavel_lishin 18y ago
  My stepfather has said a few times that he wishes he had taken the "further" option. I'm not sure if I ever want kids, but something about freezing my sperm and getting a vasectomy worries me. A fire at the sperm bank, and my genetic legacy is lost forever. (Of course I could go in for a reversal, but those don't always take, etc., etc.)
raganwald 18y ago
Heinlein's book "Podkayne of Mars" describes couples marrying and freezing entire babies to be thawed out later when they are older, wealthier, and presumably wiser.
delano 18y ago
You don't need to wonder. You can do it and then forget about it until you're interested in it again.

ShabbyDoo 18y ago

I wonder if the study controlled for the selection bias inherent in the decisions of males of various ages to reproduce and in their preferences for mates. Presumably, 50 year-old men are not procreating with women their age. Do older men choose younger, but dumber women to mate with? Do dumber men end up having children later in life? Are 50 year-old men worse parents?

dangoldin 18y ago
Good point. They good control it by looking at IQ relationships of brothers potentially.
- old-gregg 18y ago
  Pick a list of successful people you believe are intelligent. Uncheck those who don't have brothers/sisters. Then look if they're an older/younger kid in the family. I've done the exercise out of curiosity and it appears the article is correct: most famous programmers were older brothers.
  - gjm11 18y ago
    Also susceptible to other explanations. For instance, perhaps having a younger sibling to teach stuff to is good for your brain.
    - pavel_lishin 18y ago
      Yes, you'd really need siblings who came from the same parents, yet were separated at birth.
      - dangoldin 18y ago
        Then you run into problems of other parents since they will have their own parenting style which will affect the IQ. I wonder if there's a big difference of the IQ in twins. If there is then the IQ difference of 3 in the article may not be all that significant. The ideal case would be children from the same parents that lived in the same town, went to the same schools, participated in the same activities, had similar friends, and a whole list of other factors. It would also be convenient to have there be more than 2 kids to see the quantitative meaning of "older" This may just be an indication of a first time parent spending a lot more effort on the first child or just having the resources to do so. During the early years the IQ of the first child is developed while there are fewer resources for the later children. On the other hand, younger parents may just be starting out and have fewer resources/experience to help them raise the child. You can also take a look at grandparents - younger parents will have a more active set of grandparents which may be contributing to this IQ boost as well. Too may unknowns here but an interesting topic.

ChrisMac 18y ago

As far as I know, a three point IQ difference doesn't have any practical effect. It may be statistically significant, but it's hardly a huge advantage to score three points higher than someone else.

hachiya 18y ago

With an average difference of only 3 IQ points that this study found, these children appear to be missing out on little with regards to intelligence. I would be more inclined to believe any differences in intelligence, if there really are any, are due to the environment in which the child was raised, rather than genetic advantages and disadvantages. In today's world, I would guess that children born to 50 year old men are being born into a family where the wife is not the father's first wife, and the father is not as likely to be as dedicated a father as the younger fathers plan to be. This is a sweeping generalization, but I would wager that for those 50 year-olds who are remarried (once, twice, or more), by the fact that they did not care to keep the family intact the first time (excluding cases where the wife died), these men and their current wives would be less likely to provide a nurturing environment compared to a young father. A sweeping generalization, but my gut feeling, based on the likely fact that many of those 50 year old fathers are remarried once, twice, or more, indicating to me that they are not as good a father as the SOME of the 20 year olds will be. Also, statistics on society's accepted geniuses do not seem to show a correlation between fathers' ages and the intelligence of the offspring. Here is a list I have compiled. IQ scores may be disputed, but the intelligence of these people generally are not. Genius IQ Father's age ------ -- ------------ Einstein about 160 31 Galileo 185 44 ========================================== Bobby Fischer 187 Likely father, Paul nemenyi: 48 Birth certificate father, Hans-Gerhardt Fischer: 35 http://www.nndb.com/people/455/000024383/ ========================================== Madame de Stael 180 33 Ludwig Wittgenstein 190 42 Blaise Pascal 195 35 Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz 205 49 John Stuart Mill 200 33 Emanuel Swedenborg 205 34 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe 210 39 As you can see, one of the highest IQ's, Leibniz's, had a father who as 49 years old. Einstein's, considered the lowest at 160, had a father of 31, the youngest in this list. So this is opposite the study's findings. However, I don't really see a correlation overall. With the study's difference of only 3 IQ points on average, I am inclined to believe that age makes no difference in the intelligence of their offspring, especially in those families that provide a nurturing environment, regardless of the parents' ages.

unalone 18y ago

cosmo7 18y ago

Can we draft a law preventing journalists from trying to interpret statistics?

tokenadult 18y ago
First let's teach college teachers of statistics (who usually aren't statisticians) how to teach statistics. One of my favorite articles on that subject http://statland.org/MAAFIXED.PDF http://statland.org/MAAFIXED.PDF is so thoughtful that I reread it from time to time just to savor the language. Another good article about how to teach statistics http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=uclastat/cts/tise http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10... is helpful in guiding people who have studied statistics before to rethink what they think they have learned. It is by a very eminent statistician.

tokenadult 18y ago

It looks like several journalists need to read the new book Intelligence and How to Get It by Richard E. Nisbett, http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/winter09/006505.htm http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/winter09/006505.htm which I am reading just now. Nisbett reviews the best recent literature on IQ testing and what it means, and punches holes in the fallacious reasoning used by many advocates of a strong hereditarian view of influence on IQ. A really good book for background reading on IQ testing and how it works is IQ and Human Intelligence by N. J. Mackintosh, http://www.amazon.com/IQ-Human-Intelligence-N-Mackintosh/dp/019852367X/ http://www.amazon.com/IQ-Human-Intelligence-N-Mackintosh/dp/... which includes very clear explanations of how IQ tests have developed historically, how they are currently constructed and validated, and what we still don't know about human rationality despite a century of IQ testing.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

mhb 18y ago

The same study found that children's IQ was marginally higher if they were born to older mothers, a finding scientists have put down to those women spending more time caring for and nurturing their infants. Maybe younger fathers are more nurturing.

vermontdevil 18y ago

This is purely anecdotal but my grandfather was 60 when my dad was born. By all accounts my dad was a highly intelligent man who achieved well in the Navy despite not finishing high school (needed money).

huherto 18y ago
On the anecdotal side. A friend was born when her father was 75. Some people say she is a genius (clearly an exaggeration) but she s smart any way.

known 18y ago

You are a product of your environment. --Clement Stone