7 ms·

Lacking guns and even bows, they could hunt only by digging traps or pursuing prey across the mountains until the animals collapsed from exhaustion. It's inter

Lacking guns and even bows, they could hunt only by digging traps or pursuing prey across the mountains until the animals collapsed from exhaustion. It's interesting that they stumbled on the persistence hunting technique so naturally. Indirect evidence to support the Endurance running hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis).

pav3l 14y ago
Whoever is interested, here are two very good academic articles about persistent hunting (subscription required): http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/508695 http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/508695 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248408001358 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248408... Also, here is a video of a modern persistent hunter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
- resatori 14y ago
  How do they bring the prey home after hunting it 30km?
  - sirrocco 14y ago
    Well.. from the article : "across his shoulders". I can't even imagine.
  - pav3l 14y ago
    Endurance hunting is rarely a straight line race. Here is an example of a route for one of those hunts (it's from my first link): http://www.jstor.org/literatum/publisher/jstor/journals/content/curranth/2006/ca.2006.47.issue-6/508695/production/images/large/fg2.jpeg http://www.jstor.org/literatum/publisher/jstor/journals/cont... As you can see, even though the overall distance is 25.1 km, the straight line distance between the start and finish is less than a mile.
  - bdunbar 14y ago
    On your back, in pieces.
  - astral303 14y ago
    I watched the YouTube "Lost in Taiga" videos in Russian and they mention that the whole family traveled for two days (with overnight camping) over to eat the killed animal. Whether it was this 30km one or a different one is unclear.
- ddunkin 14y ago
  It also reminded me of this, an old episode of This American Life: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/80/running-after-antelope http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/80/ru...
  - bubbleRefuge 14y ago
    Nice. I remember that myself.
  - smcl 14y ago
    I also recommend the book he wrote by the same title, featuring some of the same essays/articles featured in the broadcast and a good deal more. If you're in the US it should be no bother to find, but if you're abroad it'll take a bit of searching (or ordering from the US)
jere 14y ago
I thought the same thing and was especially shocked that the technique could ever be used in the Siberian taiga (both because of the cold and the dense vegetation). Compare this to a quote from the above wikipedia article "Scientists, posit that early tracking methods were developed in open, sparsely vegetated terrain such as the Kalahari Desert in southern Africa." Between the barefoot hunting and the persistence hunting, this story seems like it's tailor made for Born to Run.
- jusben1369 14y ago
  Well it's an endurance method vs a distance method. "Run your prey ragged" I guess. You could do that on steep mountainsides just as quickly (perhaps even more quickly) than open plains. You'd just need to not lose site/sound of them in the dense forest which should be doable.
buf 14y ago
Very interesting hypothesis.
jusben1369 14y ago
The other main predator that also hunts in this fashion? Wolves/dogs. There's a theory that it was this overlap in hunting styles that made us natural "partners" and led to the close relationship we have today.
- loeg 14y ago
  Wolves and dogs can't do this over nearly the same distance humans can — they shed body heat through panting and can only keep up a run for 3-6 miles[0]. Humans can run marathons. [0]: I don't remember my source for this, sorry. But this is interesting for similar reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon Edit: I should say, wolves/dogs can run for long distances too, at a slower gait. But they can only out-pace human marathon-distance runners for a few miles before overheating. Edit 2: Found a source[1]: "Dogs can gallop for only about 10 to 15 minutes before reverting to a trot, and so their distance-running speed tops out at about 3.8 meters per second." As commenters below have pointed out, yes, if it's cold enough, this doesn't matter ;-). [1]: http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/06/long_distance_running_and_evolution_why_humans_can_outrun_horses_but_can_t_jump_higher_than_cats_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/06/long...
  - gregwebs 14y ago
    It is temperature dependent. Try keeping up with the dogs running the Iditarod in Alaska :)
    - cfontes 14y ago
      +1 great point !
    - loeg 14y ago
      Good point! Also, humans do not run very well in snow (bipeds, too much weight per surface area, too high center of gravity and stride length...).
  - rthomas6 14y ago
masklinn 14y ago
On the other hand, I guess they did not know/had not rediscovered tanning, because > A couple of kettles served them well for many years, but when rust finally overcame them, the only replacements they could fashion came from birch bark. Since these could not be placed in a fire, it became far harder to cook. they did not replace their kettles by a leather cauldron.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Would they have had tannin available?
  - freehunter 14y ago
    If they didn't have tannin from tree barks, they could have used brain tanning (from the brains of the animal they killed) or made rawhide (which doesn't require tannins).
  - masklinn 14y ago
    They're readily available in bark and some leaves, though you'd need to know how to extract it. A simpler alternative is "brain tanning", there's an old saying that each animal has enough brain to tan its hide which is probably true enough for basic purposes. Brain tanning is still the way native americans do their tanning (colonists brought vegetable tanning to the americas, and modern mineral and chemical tannings arose during the 19th century)
    - lostlogin 14y ago
      Recent Kevin McCloud series showed brain tanning in case anyone is interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McClouds_Man_Made_Home http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McClouds_Man_Made_Home
Florin_Andrei 14y ago
Come to think of it, our legs (including associate muscles like the gluteus) are indeed disproportionately large for our overall body size. It would be interesting to know how do we measure up against other mammals in terms of... uh... I forgot the technical name, it's the ability to absorb and metabolize oxygen. It's determined by lung size among other things, and it's a strong predictor of endurance. Add to that a large brain, capable of planning, and driven by purpose and by an understanding of the concept of time in general and future in particular. Large legs, oxygen metabolism, brain capable of long-term planning - well, that's the perfect trifecta that could produce an excellent endurance runner.
- jcrites 14y ago
  I believe the concept/term you're looking for is VO2 max: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max
  - Florin_Andrei 14y ago
    Exactly. Thanks.
pkulak 14y ago
I'm shocked that this could work on the Tundra. It was always my understanding that endurance running required a hot climate so that humans' superior cooling system could win out.
- Lexarius 14y ago
  Animals on the tundra would probably have thick coats or other insulation and might be able to overheat themselves in the right conditions. A human could shed its clothing to cool down. It's also possible that potential prey in this area is not well adapted for outrunning endurance hunters, which might make them easier to run down than animals that have been hunted by runners for thousands of years.

pav3l 14y ago

Whoever is interested, here are two very good academic articles about persistent hunting (subscription required): http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/508695 http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/508695 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248408001358 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248408... Also, here is a video of a modern persistent hunter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o

resatori 14y ago
How do they bring the prey home after hunting it 30km?
- sirrocco 14y ago
  Well.. from the article : "across his shoulders". I can't even imagine.
- pav3l 14y ago
  Endurance hunting is rarely a straight line race. Here is an example of a route for one of those hunts (it's from my first link): http://www.jstor.org/literatum/publisher/jstor/journals/content/curranth/2006/ca.2006.47.issue-6/508695/production/images/large/fg2.jpeg http://www.jstor.org/literatum/publisher/jstor/journals/cont... As you can see, even though the overall distance is 25.1 km, the straight line distance between the start and finish is less than a mile.
- bdunbar 14y ago
  On your back, in pieces.
- astral303 14y ago
  I watched the YouTube "Lost in Taiga" videos in Russian and they mention that the whole family traveled for two days (with overnight camping) over to eat the killed animal. Whether it was this 30km one or a different one is unclear.
ddunkin 14y ago
It also reminded me of this, an old episode of This American Life: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/80/running-after-antelope http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/80/ru...
- bubbleRefuge 14y ago
  Nice. I remember that myself.
- smcl 14y ago
  I also recommend the book he wrote by the same title, featuring some of the same essays/articles featured in the broadcast and a good deal more. If you're in the US it should be no bother to find, but if you're abroad it'll take a bit of searching (or ordering from the US)

jere 14y ago

I thought the same thing and was especially shocked that the technique could ever be used in the Siberian taiga (both because of the cold and the dense vegetation). Compare this to a quote from the above wikipedia article "Scientists, posit that early tracking methods were developed in open, sparsely vegetated terrain such as the Kalahari Desert in southern Africa." Between the barefoot hunting and the persistence hunting, this story seems like it's tailor made for Born to Run.

jusben1369 14y ago
Well it's an endurance method vs a distance method. "Run your prey ragged" I guess. You could do that on steep mountainsides just as quickly (perhaps even more quickly) than open plains. You'd just need to not lose site/sound of them in the dense forest which should be doable.

buf 14y ago

Very interesting hypothesis.

jusben1369 14y ago

The other main predator that also hunts in this fashion? Wolves/dogs. There's a theory that it was this overlap in hunting styles that made us natural "partners" and led to the close relationship we have today.

loeg 14y ago
Wolves and dogs can't do this over nearly the same distance humans can — they shed body heat through panting and can only keep up a run for 3-6 miles[0]. Humans can run marathons. [0]: I don't remember my source for this, sorry. But this is interesting for similar reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon Edit: I should say, wolves/dogs can run for long distances too, at a slower gait. But they can only out-pace human marathon-distance runners for a few miles before overheating. Edit 2: Found a source[1]: "Dogs can gallop for only about 10 to 15 minutes before reverting to a trot, and so their distance-running speed tops out at about 3.8 meters per second." As commenters below have pointed out, yes, if it's cold enough, this doesn't matter ;-). [1]: http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/06/long_distance_running_and_evolution_why_humans_can_outrun_horses_but_can_t_jump_higher_than_cats_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/06/long...
- gregwebs 14y ago
  It is temperature dependent. Try keeping up with the dogs running the Iditarod in Alaska :)
  - cfontes 14y ago
    +1 great point !
  - loeg 14y ago
    Good point! Also, humans do not run very well in snow (bipeds, too much weight per surface area, too high center of gravity and stride length...).
- rthomas6 14y ago

masklinn 14y ago

On the other hand, I guess they did not know/had not rediscovered tanning, because > A couple of kettles served them well for many years, but when rust finally overcame them, the only replacements they could fashion came from birch bark. Since these could not be placed in a fire, it became far harder to cook. they did not replace their kettles by a leather cauldron.

sliverstorm 14y ago
Would they have had tannin available?
- freehunter 14y ago
  If they didn't have tannin from tree barks, they could have used brain tanning (from the brains of the animal they killed) or made rawhide (which doesn't require tannins).
- masklinn 14y ago
  They're readily available in bark and some leaves, though you'd need to know how to extract it. A simpler alternative is "brain tanning", there's an old saying that each animal has enough brain to tan its hide which is probably true enough for basic purposes. Brain tanning is still the way native americans do their tanning (colonists brought vegetable tanning to the americas, and modern mineral and chemical tannings arose during the 19th century)
  - lostlogin 14y ago
    Recent Kevin McCloud series showed brain tanning in case anyone is interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McClouds_Man_Made_Home http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McClouds_Man_Made_Home

Florin_Andrei 14y ago

Come to think of it, our legs (including associate muscles like the gluteus) are indeed disproportionately large for our overall body size. It would be interesting to know how do we measure up against other mammals in terms of... uh... I forgot the technical name, it's the ability to absorb and metabolize oxygen. It's determined by lung size among other things, and it's a strong predictor of endurance. Add to that a large brain, capable of planning, and driven by purpose and by an understanding of the concept of time in general and future in particular. Large legs, oxygen metabolism, brain capable of long-term planning - well, that's the perfect trifecta that could produce an excellent endurance runner.

jcrites 14y ago
I believe the concept/term you're looking for is VO2 max: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max
- Florin_Andrei 14y ago
  Exactly. Thanks.

pkulak 14y ago

I'm shocked that this could work on the Tundra. It was always my understanding that endurance running required a hot climate so that humans' superior cooling system could win out.

Lexarius 14y ago
Animals on the tundra would probably have thick coats or other insulation and might be able to overheat themselves in the right conditions. A human could shed its clothing to cool down. It's also possible that potential prey in this area is not well adapted for outrunning endurance hunters, which might make them easier to run down than animals that have been hunted by runners for thousands of years.