9 ms·

Pirate Bay Founder Could Be Prosecuted For Hacking “Within a Month”

40 points by Libertatea 14y ago

benologist 14y ago
*Guy who stole from artists everywhere. It's much more accurate that way.
- cookiecaper 14y ago
  What about: "guy who started a popular, light-speed, peer-to-peer library"? Think about libraries and why they exist. Think about the way libraries work. Then compare with modern filesharing. It seems that the only difference is that online, we can trade things so fast that the old guard in big media can't think of a way to keep monetization intact. Anyone who accepts the value of a library system (i.e., a big building that holds various kinds of "intellectual property" for members to peruse for free and/or a nominal one-time fee) should logically conclude that The Pirate Bay and its ilk are a public service, not a criminal engagement.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    Which library are you talking about?
  - biot 14y ago
    You might have an argument if all uploads to TPB were purchased (or otherwise legally licensed) copies and people sharing materials in this peer to peer library could only share as many simultaneous copies as were purchased. There are a few companies who are trying to adopt such a legal peer-to-peer lending network. However, there's a great example of a modern library where you can find works produced by small and big media alike, and monetization is effortless for the consumer via nominal, one-time fees: Apple's App Store. Yet still people find ways to circumvent the new guard just to avoid paying 99 cents for apps.
    - Volpe 14y ago
      Didn't the "original" seeder, pay for the copy? Seems to be that rather than pay taxes to buy content for the library, one can just contribute directly to that library.
      - biot 14y ago
        Not necessarily, though no doubt some have paid. Leaked copies of movies and software are sometimes uploaded prior to the media being made available for sale. Theater employees have been caught camming movies and uploading them without having paid for a license. Others upload rentals or media captured from broadcast TV, not purchases. Public libraries welcome donations of books. And as I mentioned in my parent comment, startups are trying to work within copyright law to allow people to upload their movies/music and loan it out to others with the caveat that the number of simultaneous consumers of the media cannot exceed the number of licensed copies. I'd like to see such services take off, though they face an uphill battle to prove that loaning format shifted media isn't a copyright violation.
        cookiecaper 14y ago
        You're basically arguing against digitization of media. The whole point of digital stuff is that we can make nearly-instantaneous, perfect replicas with negligent overhead. That's why we convert and encode stuff as strings of repeatable digits. Attempting to limit the number of copies of mass-produced, digitized media in circulation is not only silly but totally futile. They simply must accept that the old monetization model based on artificially controlled scarcity is no longer tenable. As Bruce Schneier says, trying to make digital bits not copyable is like trying to make water not wet. It's an inextricable property of the medium. Your example of the app store is actually good, and shows a good monetization path that actually benefits from the inherent properties of the digital medium. You're right that some people still try to pirate 99 cent apps, but in my experience those people aren't part of the audience in the first place, because they don't have the 99 cents to spend, or they wouldn't be wasting hours and days to save themselves a few dollars. The time of anyone with a job is significantly more valuable than that. While there are always going to be a few penny wise and pound foolish irrational actors in the mix, you can't cripple your business based on that kind of rabid obsession. You have to let it go at some point. It's time to give up the archaic, draconian copyright regime that demands total control of a PC before it allows it to display a movie and reasonably embrace our digitized future, including building monetization models that aren't "sue filesharers".
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - benologist 14y ago
    How about we come back to this when libraries are monetized by billions of ad impressions a month and don't even pay for what they hand out?
    - cookiecaper 14y ago
      Libraries today are monetized by many millions of tax dollars, money which is extracted compulsorily from everyone within a certain geographic area. imo this is more lucrative than banner ad sales. Libraries already often don't pay for everything that they hand out; they welcome and indeed rely upon donations.
- noonespecial 14y ago
  Not all artists would agree. He did verifiably found the Pirate Bay. It is doubtful that he stole from artists "everywhere". So, um, less accurate.
- bxbb 14y ago
  *Guy who stole from artists IS everywhere. It's much more accurate that way. corrected, that's how the torrent work :p
- offdrey 14y ago
  More like te guy who stole from recording/motion studios. There is a difference
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - Executor 14y ago
    Copying/sharing not stealing.
- mverwijs 14y ago
  What is your homeaddress? I'll send you 10 random CD's that I own. Am I now stealing from the artists? Are you?
  - quasque 14y ago
    Depends if you made a copy of the CDs first.
    - mverwijs 14y ago
      Does it though? One could argue that even without making the copy I am depriving artists from income. Perhaps one or two of those CDs you would actually have bought yourself had you not received them from me for free. Follow that line of thought and pretty soon no gifts could ever be exchanged as it could potentially be considered theft. Now, what if there were a website that you could post something like: "Man, I'd really love to have that latest Rihanna CD. Here's my address." And some do-gooder would be able to send you his copy, since he doesn't want it any longer. No copies made. No money exchanged hands. Just a gift from one fan to another. Yet you are still depriving Rihanna her 2cts. Someone is still stealing. I mean, Rihanna is still a few cents short, isn't she? I don't know, man. This whole thing is too grey. Far too grey to simply say that TPB is depriving income simply by providing a platform for downloading .torrent files that could potentially be used to download copyrighted materials, which could possibly sometimes deprive some artist of some income.
      - Kylekramer 14y ago
        I don't see what is so grey about it. Regifting property to one other person without retaining it, OK. Regifting property to multiple people or while retaining it, not OK. You could argue that regifting is depriving artists, but it is terrible argument because property is generally allowed to be redistributed without the original creator's consent.
        summerdown2 14y ago
        If digital files are property, why can't I resell them?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
pathy 14y ago
Just a reminder: This case is not related to his Pirate Bay involvement. He is accused of hacking Logica, who handles data for the Swedish Tax Authority. How much empathy would you have if someone, not involved in TPB, 'stole' information about you from your local tax authority? Especially Americans who seem to be paranoid about their tax stuff (For example Romney). At least in Sweden your tax data is pretty much public - when requested from the Tax Authority. As a side note: This is also true for privately held companies in Sweden, all annual reports are pretty much public. You can for example view Mojang's (Minecraft) figures here: http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB
damncabbage 14y ago
From pathy, who appears to be hellbanned: Just a reminder: This case is not related to his Pirate Bay involvement. He is accused of hacking Logica, who handles data for the Swedish Tax Authority. How much empathy would you have if someone, not involved in TPB, 'stole' information about you from your local tax authority? Especially Americans who seem to be paranoid about their tax stuff (For example Romney). At least in Sweden your tax data is pretty much public - when requested from the Tax Authority. As a side note: This is also true for privately held companies in Sweden, all annual reports are pretty much public. You can for example view Mojang's (Minecraft) figures here: http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB
- halviti 14y ago
  From what I can tell, he's never been officially accused of this crime (yet), but it seems to have been enough to deport him, and hold him for five months without charges, with him being held for at least a month in solitary. That's ridiculous.
  - pathy 14y ago
    (Assuming I am actually not hellbanned - if I am, interesting...) It is how the Swedish justice system works, you don't get officially accused, in the American sense, until you actually go to court. He is being held during investigation due to him being at risk of fleeing and such. For more information on what he is going through see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4ktning#H.C3.A4ktning_.28Swedish_law.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4ktning#H.C3.A4ktning_.28... I seem to recall him being held on probable cause but I am not sure. Edit: hm, I think accidental double post caused the my original comment to be flagged as dead?
    - halviti 14y ago
      Yes, I am aware of this, but read your link: A person may be held in custody for a period of normally not more than 14 days (seven days if only the degree of suspicion "reasonable suspicion" exists) In order to hold him for 5 months, they would need to file an extension every two weeks... and at 5 months, you're obviously just abusing the law. If they didn't have enough evidence 5 months ago, surely they don't seem to have it now.
contingencies 14y ago
I met Gottfried in 2009 and have been writing to him in prison. He is an intelligent person and there is no evidence that he has harmed anyone. Extraditing him from a country on the other side of the world, seemingly without any official paperwork or due legal process, and locking him in an extended period of solitary confinement should put the chills through all of us. Is this what 'democracy' has come to in mainland Europe, of all places? Sweden should be hung out to trial by the EU, Cambodia by the UN. Remember the words: First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me. Our human rights are being denied by our own governments, who see no limit to their political power in breaking legal process and crossing global borders. We have seen what they have done to Assange, what they have done to Kim Dotcom, what they have done to Gottfried. All within a single year. All within our community. All flouting international law. Not to mention Aaron. As states merge with the internet and the future of our civilization becomes the future of the internet, we must redefine force relations. If we do not, the universality of the internet will merge global humanity into one giant grid of mass surveillance and mass control. We must raise an alarm. Julian Assange, 'Cypherpunks': http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/cypherpunks/ http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/cypherpunks/
- kamjam 14y ago
  Extraditing him from a country on the other side of the world, seemingly without any official paperwork or due legal process, and locking him in an extended period of solitary confinement should put the chills through all of us. Is this what 'democracy' has come to in mainland Europe, of all places? Sounds a lot like Europe has become USA and are following their lead with Guantanamo Bay to me... without all the beatings and waterboarding... but more evidence may surface yet! But it's a sorry state of affairs and just adds weight to the reason why Julian Assange does not want to go to Sweden for questioning! I agree with your words though, we're all pretty much f*ed unless we stand up and fight!
- toyg 14y ago
  in mainland Europe, of all places? Not just that, in Sweden of all places, beacon of pacifism, social justice and social-democratic workers' paradise. Mainland Europe, in general, is kinda shitty on this sort of thing anyway (French and Italian police have horrendous human-rights records, in Italy a trial can last 15 years or more...), but Sweden lost a lot of credibility on these matters very quickly in the last few years. The trend is worrying to say the least.
smutticus 14y ago
We will have to wait and see how long he is kept in prison before being actually charged and brought before a judge. If it stretches to more than 6 months then the people of Sweden need to concern themselves with their general loss of Habeas Corpus. Right now it seems things are still developing and maybe we should give the prosecutors a bit more time.
- pathy 14y ago
  I just checked to be sure, but as far as I can tell he was transferred to a regular prison on the 7th of December to serve the rest of his TPB sentence (1 year minus the time he has been detained) The actual court case for the Logica hack is probably going to start in February. source: http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/svartholm-warg-fors-till-fangelse_7736082.svd http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/svartholm-warg-fors-till-f...
  - subsystem 14y ago
    "1 year minus the time he has been detained" I'm not sure that's true since he was detained for another crime than the one he went to jail for. Sweden do have automatic release on parole after 2/3 of the sentence has been served.
    - pathy 14y ago
      You may be right, I can't say for sure - I guess time will tell?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rikacomet 14y ago
This is the case of anti-piracy champions nailing a pro-piracy person, who they claim to have broken their laws, by breaking his rights and their own laws. I remember the famous saying of Winston Churchill: Good things can only be achieved by good ways.

40 points by Libertatea 14y ago

benologist 14y ago

*Guy who stole from artists everywhere. It's much more accurate that way.

cookiecaper 14y ago
What about: "guy who started a popular, light-speed, peer-to-peer library"? Think about libraries and why they exist. Think about the way libraries work. Then compare with modern filesharing. It seems that the only difference is that online, we can trade things so fast that the old guard in big media can't think of a way to keep monetization intact. Anyone who accepts the value of a library system (i.e., a big building that holds various kinds of "intellectual property" for members to peruse for free and/or a nominal one-time fee) should logically conclude that The Pirate Bay and its ilk are a public service, not a criminal engagement.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  Which library are you talking about?
- biot 14y ago
  You might have an argument if all uploads to TPB were purchased (or otherwise legally licensed) copies and people sharing materials in this peer to peer library could only share as many simultaneous copies as were purchased. There are a few companies who are trying to adopt such a legal peer-to-peer lending network. However, there's a great example of a modern library where you can find works produced by small and big media alike, and monetization is effortless for the consumer via nominal, one-time fees: Apple's App Store. Yet still people find ways to circumvent the new guard just to avoid paying 99 cents for apps.
  - Volpe 14y ago
    Didn't the "original" seeder, pay for the copy? Seems to be that rather than pay taxes to buy content for the library, one can just contribute directly to that library.
    - biot 14y ago
      Not necessarily, though no doubt some have paid. Leaked copies of movies and software are sometimes uploaded prior to the media being made available for sale. Theater employees have been caught camming movies and uploading them without having paid for a license. Others upload rentals or media captured from broadcast TV, not purchases. Public libraries welcome donations of books. And as I mentioned in my parent comment, startups are trying to work within copyright law to allow people to upload their movies/music and loan it out to others with the caveat that the number of simultaneous consumers of the media cannot exceed the number of licensed copies. I'd like to see such services take off, though they face an uphill battle to prove that loaning format shifted media isn't a copyright violation.
      - cookiecaper 14y ago
        You're basically arguing against digitization of media. The whole point of digital stuff is that we can make nearly-instantaneous, perfect replicas with negligent overhead. That's why we convert and encode stuff as strings of repeatable digits. Attempting to limit the number of copies of mass-produced, digitized media in circulation is not only silly but totally futile. They simply must accept that the old monetization model based on artificially controlled scarcity is no longer tenable. As Bruce Schneier says, trying to make digital bits not copyable is like trying to make water not wet. It's an inextricable property of the medium. Your example of the app store is actually good, and shows a good monetization path that actually benefits from the inherent properties of the digital medium. You're right that some people still try to pirate 99 cent apps, but in my experience those people aren't part of the audience in the first place, because they don't have the 99 cents to spend, or they wouldn't be wasting hours and days to save themselves a few dollars. The time of anyone with a job is significantly more valuable than that. While there are always going to be a few penny wise and pound foolish irrational actors in the mix, you can't cripple your business based on that kind of rabid obsession. You have to let it go at some point. It's time to give up the archaic, draconian copyright regime that demands total control of a PC before it allows it to display a movie and reasonably embrace our digitized future, including building monetization models that aren't "sue filesharers".
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- benologist 14y ago
  How about we come back to this when libraries are monetized by billions of ad impressions a month and don't even pay for what they hand out?
  - cookiecaper 14y ago
    Libraries today are monetized by many millions of tax dollars, money which is extracted compulsorily from everyone within a certain geographic area. imo this is more lucrative than banner ad sales. Libraries already often don't pay for everything that they hand out; they welcome and indeed rely upon donations.
noonespecial 14y ago
Not all artists would agree. He did verifiably found the Pirate Bay. It is doubtful that he stole from artists "everywhere". So, um, less accurate.
bxbb 14y ago
*Guy who stole from artists IS everywhere. It's much more accurate that way. corrected, that's how the torrent work :p
offdrey 14y ago
More like te guy who stole from recording/motion studios. There is a difference
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- Executor 14y ago
  Copying/sharing not stealing.
mverwijs 14y ago
What is your homeaddress? I'll send you 10 random CD's that I own. Am I now stealing from the artists? Are you?
- quasque 14y ago
  Depends if you made a copy of the CDs first.
  - mverwijs 14y ago
    Does it though? One could argue that even without making the copy I am depriving artists from income. Perhaps one or two of those CDs you would actually have bought yourself had you not received them from me for free. Follow that line of thought and pretty soon no gifts could ever be exchanged as it could potentially be considered theft. Now, what if there were a website that you could post something like: "Man, I'd really love to have that latest Rihanna CD. Here's my address." And some do-gooder would be able to send you his copy, since he doesn't want it any longer. No copies made. No money exchanged hands. Just a gift from one fan to another. Yet you are still depriving Rihanna her 2cts. Someone is still stealing. I mean, Rihanna is still a few cents short, isn't she? I don't know, man. This whole thing is too grey. Far too grey to simply say that TPB is depriving income simply by providing a platform for downloading .torrent files that could potentially be used to download copyrighted materials, which could possibly sometimes deprive some artist of some income.
    - Kylekramer 14y ago
      I don't see what is so grey about it. Regifting property to one other person without retaining it, OK. Regifting property to multiple people or while retaining it, not OK. You could argue that regifting is depriving artists, but it is terrible argument because property is generally allowed to be redistributed without the original creator's consent.
      - summerdown2 14y ago
        If digital files are property, why can't I resell them?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

pathy 14y ago

Just a reminder: This case is not related to his Pirate Bay involvement. He is accused of hacking Logica, who handles data for the Swedish Tax Authority. How much empathy would you have if someone, not involved in TPB, 'stole' information about you from your local tax authority? Especially Americans who seem to be paranoid about their tax stuff (For example Romney). At least in Sweden your tax data is pretty much public - when requested from the Tax Authority. As a side note: This is also true for privately held companies in Sweden, all annual reports are pretty much public. You can for example view Mojang's (Minecraft) figures here: http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB

damncabbage 14y ago

From pathy, who appears to be hellbanned: Just a reminder: This case is not related to his Pirate Bay involvement. He is accused of hacking Logica, who handles data for the Swedish Tax Authority. How much empathy would you have if someone, not involved in TPB, 'stole' information about you from your local tax authority? Especially Americans who seem to be paranoid about their tax stuff (For example Romney). At least in Sweden your tax data is pretty much public - when requested from the Tax Authority. As a side note: This is also true for privately held companies in Sweden, all annual reports are pretty much public. You can for example view Mojang's (Minecraft) figures here: http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB http://www.allabolag.se/5568192388/Mojang_AB

halviti 14y ago
From what I can tell, he's never been officially accused of this crime (yet), but it seems to have been enough to deport him, and hold him for five months without charges, with him being held for at least a month in solitary. That's ridiculous.
- pathy 14y ago
  (Assuming I am actually not hellbanned - if I am, interesting...) It is how the Swedish justice system works, you don't get officially accused, in the American sense, until you actually go to court. He is being held during investigation due to him being at risk of fleeing and such. For more information on what he is going through see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4ktning#H.C3.A4ktning_.28Swedish_law.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4ktning#H.C3.A4ktning_.28... I seem to recall him being held on probable cause but I am not sure. Edit: hm, I think accidental double post caused the my original comment to be flagged as dead?
  - halviti 14y ago
    Yes, I am aware of this, but read your link: A person may be held in custody for a period of normally not more than 14 days (seven days if only the degree of suspicion "reasonable suspicion" exists) In order to hold him for 5 months, they would need to file an extension every two weeks... and at 5 months, you're obviously just abusing the law. If they didn't have enough evidence 5 months ago, surely they don't seem to have it now.

contingencies 14y ago

I met Gottfried in 2009 and have been writing to him in prison. He is an intelligent person and there is no evidence that he has harmed anyone. Extraditing him from a country on the other side of the world, seemingly without any official paperwork or due legal process, and locking him in an extended period of solitary confinement should put the chills through all of us. Is this what 'democracy' has come to in mainland Europe, of all places? Sweden should be hung out to trial by the EU, Cambodia by the UN. Remember the words: First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me. Our human rights are being denied by our own governments, who see no limit to their political power in breaking legal process and crossing global borders. We have seen what they have done to Assange, what they have done to Kim Dotcom, what they have done to Gottfried. All within a single year. All within our community. All flouting international law. Not to mention Aaron. As states merge with the internet and the future of our civilization becomes the future of the internet, we must redefine force relations. If we do not, the universality of the internet will merge global humanity into one giant grid of mass surveillance and mass control. We must raise an alarm. Julian Assange, 'Cypherpunks': http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/cypherpunks/ http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/cypherpunks/

kamjam 14y ago
Extraditing him from a country on the other side of the world, seemingly without any official paperwork or due legal process, and locking him in an extended period of solitary confinement should put the chills through all of us. Is this what 'democracy' has come to in mainland Europe, of all places? Sounds a lot like Europe has become USA and are following their lead with Guantanamo Bay to me... without all the beatings and waterboarding... but more evidence may surface yet! But it's a sorry state of affairs and just adds weight to the reason why Julian Assange does not want to go to Sweden for questioning! I agree with your words though, we're all pretty much f*ed unless we stand up and fight!
toyg 14y ago
in mainland Europe, of all places? Not just that, in Sweden of all places, beacon of pacifism, social justice and social-democratic workers' paradise. Mainland Europe, in general, is kinda shitty on this sort of thing anyway (French and Italian police have horrendous human-rights records, in Italy a trial can last 15 years or more...), but Sweden lost a lot of credibility on these matters very quickly in the last few years. The trend is worrying to say the least.

smutticus 14y ago

We will have to wait and see how long he is kept in prison before being actually charged and brought before a judge. If it stretches to more than 6 months then the people of Sweden need to concern themselves with their general loss of Habeas Corpus. Right now it seems things are still developing and maybe we should give the prosecutors a bit more time.

pathy 14y ago
I just checked to be sure, but as far as I can tell he was transferred to a regular prison on the 7th of December to serve the rest of his TPB sentence (1 year minus the time he has been detained) The actual court case for the Logica hack is probably going to start in February. source: http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/svartholm-warg-fors-till-fangelse_7736082.svd http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/svartholm-warg-fors-till-f...
- subsystem 14y ago
  "1 year minus the time he has been detained" I'm not sure that's true since he was detained for another crime than the one he went to jail for. Sweden do have automatic release on parole after 2/3 of the sentence has been served.
  - pathy 14y ago
    You may be right, I can't say for sure - I guess time will tell?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rikacomet 14y ago

This is the case of anti-piracy champions nailing a pro-piracy person, who they claim to have broken their laws, by breaking his rights and their own laws. I remember the famous saying of Winston Churchill: Good things can only be achieved by good ways.