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My previous post: [0] As somebody who interacts with high schoolers on a regular basis, I attribute their nastiness to the snowball effect. They can't read lo

My previous post: [0] As somebody who interacts with high schoolers on a regular basis, I attribute their nastiness to the snowball effect. They can't read long form information because they didn't want to before high school. Now they can't without a great exertion of effort. They can't write because they don't read, which is where it is easiest to learn new words. They think social studies is boring because it's a lot of reading and writing. That the class usually focuses on stuff that happened too long ago to be visible in their lives doesn't help. They don't understand mathematics because their earlier instructors taught it as algorithms without context, the beautiful axiomatic nature of mathematics is never revealed. By contrast, everyone can do PE. Even kids who stay indoors a little too long, slowly giving themselves radon induced lung cancer. If you're good enough, you can even get a scholarship to play on a college team. It's no wonder in most schools so much emphasis is put on sports games. So what do you get when you have a bunch of illiterate teenage prisoners in a room trying to read Shakespeare? About the same thing you get when you have a thousand monkeys try to write it. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125650

peter_l_downs 14y ago
Speaking as one of "they", I'd just like to point out that these are all generalizations. Not every highschool is full of students like those described above.
- unimpressive 14y ago
  Most any statement made about any large group of people is a generalization. The truth of the matter is, you're in good company. [0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4327297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4327297
derleth 14y ago
Every one of these things applies about as well to adults, in my experience, at whatever age cutoff you use to define the word 'adult'. Especially this one: > They don't understand mathematics because their earlier instructors taught it as algorithms without context, the beautiful axiomatic nature of mathematics is never revealed. And, in my experience, this is incomplete at best: > They can't write because they don't read, which is where it is easiest to learn new words. Learning new words is a small part of why reading is essential to writing. Most of it is learning new sentence and paragraph structures, which mirrors the new structures of thought required to compose those kinds of linguistic structures in the first place. Hemingway is an extreme example: You won't learn a lot of interesting new words reading his works, but you'll learn a lot about how to structure ideas.
- unimpressive 14y ago
  I know. Conveying that amount of nuance in your second point would have destroyed my flow. The sports thing was a wrong statement caused by the process of writing a comment as opposed to a blog post. (Ex: Fire and forget) I may or may not have written that while on Valium, can't remember. I saw the flaws when I copy pasted but felt it would be somehow improper to rewrite the post.
entropy_ 14y ago
The emphasis on sports in US high schools has nothing to do with the fact that everyone can do it and everything to do with the entertainment industry built around sports in the US. The fact that you can get a scholarship to college just for playing sports well is a symptom of that. I live in a country where sports aren't as watched or cared about as in the US. And if they are it's other countries playing it(like the world cup/champions league/eurocup in soccer). But the whole not being able to read/write well and not liking mathematics thing holds just the same here as it does in the states. However, people don't turn to sports to derive social status(we do have your equivalent of "the popular kids" but they aren't "jocks"). Furthermore, I know of no school that puts almost any kind of real emphasis on sports. I think by far the biggest reason so much emphasis is put on sports in US high schools is precisely because of the importance sports holds in overall American culture due to the entire entertainment industry built around it. Not the other way around.
- cpursley 14y ago
  Please tell me this magical place where people aren't obsessed with watching sports (playing themselves is fine). My passort is in hand :) I completely agree. Athletics should be decoupled from public schools - K-12 and public universities. As someone who attended public school in the US, and who's wife currently teaches at a public school, I can say with certainty that these places are just training camps for the best athletes. In the place I currently live, the adults speak of their children always in the context of how good they are at a particular sport - never about academics or other achievements. For the parents, a child who's a good athlete is the same as winning the lottery.
  - henrikschroder 14y ago
    Where I am, in Scandinavia, and I think also in most of continental Europe, sports are decoupled from the schools. You don't have school teams or schools competing against each other, instead various junior sports teams are simply local and geographical, drawing kids from surrounding schools. And junior sports activites are completely extra-curricular. A local team might have its activities at a single school, so as a student you might have your after-school basketball at your school, or another school, it all depends. You still have a lot of people watching professional sports, and working their way up through junior sports, but the "high-school jock" cliché simply does not exist. And, consequently, athletic proficiency isn't mixed with academic proficiency, the school doesn't care about how good a student is at basketball or football or whatever, that's completely outside its interests. And academic scholarships based on athletic skill is unheard of. (Then again, scholarships are pretty unheard of, university education is free... :) )

peter_l_downs 14y ago

Speaking as one of "they", I'd just like to point out that these are all generalizations. Not every highschool is full of students like those described above.

unimpressive 14y ago
Most any statement made about any large group of people is a generalization. The truth of the matter is, you're in good company. [0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4327297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4327297

derleth 14y ago

Every one of these things applies about as well to adults, in my experience, at whatever age cutoff you use to define the word 'adult'. Especially this one: > They don't understand mathematics because their earlier instructors taught it as algorithms without context, the beautiful axiomatic nature of mathematics is never revealed. And, in my experience, this is incomplete at best: > They can't write because they don't read, which is where it is easiest to learn new words. Learning new words is a small part of why reading is essential to writing. Most of it is learning new sentence and paragraph structures, which mirrors the new structures of thought required to compose those kinds of linguistic structures in the first place. Hemingway is an extreme example: You won't learn a lot of interesting new words reading his works, but you'll learn a lot about how to structure ideas.

unimpressive 14y ago
I know. Conveying that amount of nuance in your second point would have destroyed my flow. The sports thing was a wrong statement caused by the process of writing a comment as opposed to a blog post. (Ex: Fire and forget) I may or may not have written that while on Valium, can't remember. I saw the flaws when I copy pasted but felt it would be somehow improper to rewrite the post.

entropy_ 14y ago

The emphasis on sports in US high schools has nothing to do with the fact that everyone can do it and everything to do with the entertainment industry built around sports in the US. The fact that you can get a scholarship to college just for playing sports well is a symptom of that. I live in a country where sports aren't as watched or cared about as in the US. And if they are it's other countries playing it(like the world cup/champions league/eurocup in soccer). But the whole not being able to read/write well and not liking mathematics thing holds just the same here as it does in the states. However, people don't turn to sports to derive social status(we do have your equivalent of "the popular kids" but they aren't "jocks"). Furthermore, I know of no school that puts almost any kind of real emphasis on sports. I think by far the biggest reason so much emphasis is put on sports in US high schools is precisely because of the importance sports holds in overall American culture due to the entire entertainment industry built around it. Not the other way around.

cpursley 14y ago
Please tell me this magical place where people aren't obsessed with watching sports (playing themselves is fine). My passort is in hand :) I completely agree. Athletics should be decoupled from public schools - K-12 and public universities. As someone who attended public school in the US, and who's wife currently teaches at a public school, I can say with certainty that these places are just training camps for the best athletes. In the place I currently live, the adults speak of their children always in the context of how good they are at a particular sport - never about academics or other achievements. For the parents, a child who's a good athlete is the same as winning the lottery.
- henrikschroder 14y ago
  Where I am, in Scandinavia, and I think also in most of continental Europe, sports are decoupled from the schools. You don't have school teams or schools competing against each other, instead various junior sports teams are simply local and geographical, drawing kids from surrounding schools. And junior sports activites are completely extra-curricular. A local team might have its activities at a single school, so as a student you might have your after-school basketball at your school, or another school, it all depends. You still have a lot of people watching professional sports, and working their way up through junior sports, but the "high-school jock" cliché simply does not exist. And, consequently, athletic proficiency isn't mixed with academic proficiency, the school doesn't care about how good a student is at basketball or football or whatever, that's completely outside its interests. And academic scholarships based on athletic skill is unheard of. (Then again, scholarships are pretty unheard of, university education is free... :) )