4 ms·

Echoing the article and everyone else that this was an issue for me as well. I had an interview at a small-town agency once with the two owners. They talked to

by mnicole 14y ago

Echoing the article and everyone else that this was an issue for me as well. I had an interview at a small-town agency once with the two owners. They talked to me for awhile, and then walked out of the room to speak privately. When they came back, one of them said he loved my work and he'd hire me today, but his co-founder wasn't comfortable with hiring someone "so young without any formal education" and wanted me to come back after I'd done so (haha, right). They actually bickered quite a bit between themselves on the issue right in front of me (which made me feel good), but settled on not giving me the gig. I went about my way, happier that I didn't have to put up with someone who cared more about paperwork than work on paper. A few years later I was working at another agency where my art director was pleading with me not to go to college and to stay with the company (which, honestly I would have had it not been for the keylogger I found implemented by another manager). "School is a waste of time for talent," he said, "You'll be miserable. Stay here and do real work." Feeling like I'd rather see for myself than regret the opportunity, I went. It wasn't the private art schools I wanted (I couldn't afford something like that), so I ran into nothing but mediocrity and decade-old lesson plans. Underwhelmed, pissed, and broke, I went back to working. Meanwhile, a girl I know that spent the better part of 10 years receiving design/multimedia degrees has little to show for it by way of skills. While she acquires jobs easily, she doesn't keep them for very long as her talents are so many years behind what people are expecting that she can't do what she wants to/what her degree seemed to "promise" her. These days you'll see portfolios splattered with "~young designer~" or "~budding developer & entrepreneur~" and it completely goes against the spirit of being merited on your strengths rather than your accomplishments-by-age (ironically, I enjoy when kids/younger teens post their age in the titles of their ShowHNs). While it might make the kid feel more competent, acknowledging it is just asking to be underpaid because they know you won't know any better or inherently believe you aren't worth it.

corporalagumbo 14y ago
Or perhaps instead of trying to fight their age to project a defensive false equivalence with older workers, these kids are embracing and flaunting their age as a virtue - their precocity, enthusiasm, even naivety. You said it yourself - you look kindly on young kids with the balls to show off something cool they've made on HN. It's natural as an older person to feel charitable towards earnest kids, so what's wrong with leveraging that? I'm still pretty young and I often either genuinely come across as or play up a little an appearance of being incompetent and bewildered when I'm interacting with older, female shop assistants and office clerks in retail or bureaucratic environments. They like it, though they wouldn't necessarily admit it, and I get treated with faux-grumpy generosity. Works for me!
- mnicole 14y ago
  My issue isn't with their passion or desire; that's great. But I'm hiring people based on talent, not age or even enthusiasm, and I question the intent/presumption in citing that attribute alone before even seeing their work. It's the same argument about the worth of college [in certain fields]; does it really matter in the context of the role? I've also seen 25 year olds use it to describe themselves, so at what point are you still "young"? I'd assume this is the same reason people don't like seeing ages in ShowHNs, because it implies that it's some sort of accomplishment rather than simply a fact. I enjoy seeing pet projects "kids" do, and a lot of ShowHNs are really just advertising and attempts to get some users, when usually most of the younger audience is just getting their work in front of real developers to get a feel for the quality, usefulness and receive general advice on how to do better. It boils down to - are you being sold on a product or are you being asked for a critique? My opinion only comes from my experience; I started working at 15 when my vocational school realized that I was beyond their training and put me up for work-based learning. Most of the adults I interacted with in the spaces I worked in (both design and development) did not take me seriously despite my work ethic, my skills, and my enthusiasm. I begged to be in client meetings and was denied because "they wanted the clients to take them seriously", I offered faster solutions to the roundabout ways we were doing certain things and was patted on the head and told to stick to my duties. My genuine interest into the sales and communication sides of the businesseses were brushed off. I didn't mention it in the previous post, but I would also say my gender had a lot to do with it. While I couldn't be in client meetings, I was asked to come in an hour early to make the 'boys' coffee. I wouldn't be interacting with clients at all, but I was expected to wear skirts. There's also a lot of kids that dial it in, so it's tough to tell someone that they should hire more fresh faces when you've gotta weigh who is there for the experience vs. who is there for the paycheck.
  - corporalagumbo 14y ago
    Sounds like you worked for idiots. Better employees would have noticed your seriousness and helped you develop your interest in the work I think.
    - 14y ago

by mnicole 14y ago

corporalagumbo 14y ago

Or perhaps instead of trying to fight their age to project a defensive false equivalence with older workers, these kids are embracing and flaunting their age as a virtue - their precocity, enthusiasm, even naivety. You said it yourself - you look kindly on young kids with the balls to show off something cool they've made on HN. It's natural as an older person to feel charitable towards earnest kids, so what's wrong with leveraging that? I'm still pretty young and I often either genuinely come across as or play up a little an appearance of being incompetent and bewildered when I'm interacting with older, female shop assistants and office clerks in retail or bureaucratic environments. They like it, though they wouldn't necessarily admit it, and I get treated with faux-grumpy generosity. Works for me!

mnicole 14y ago
My issue isn't with their passion or desire; that's great. But I'm hiring people based on talent, not age or even enthusiasm, and I question the intent/presumption in citing that attribute alone before even seeing their work. It's the same argument about the worth of college [in certain fields]; does it really matter in the context of the role? I've also seen 25 year olds use it to describe themselves, so at what point are you still "young"? I'd assume this is the same reason people don't like seeing ages in ShowHNs, because it implies that it's some sort of accomplishment rather than simply a fact. I enjoy seeing pet projects "kids" do, and a lot of ShowHNs are really just advertising and attempts to get some users, when usually most of the younger audience is just getting their work in front of real developers to get a feel for the quality, usefulness and receive general advice on how to do better. It boils down to - are you being sold on a product or are you being asked for a critique? My opinion only comes from my experience; I started working at 15 when my vocational school realized that I was beyond their training and put me up for work-based learning. Most of the adults I interacted with in the spaces I worked in (both design and development) did not take me seriously despite my work ethic, my skills, and my enthusiasm. I begged to be in client meetings and was denied because "they wanted the clients to take them seriously", I offered faster solutions to the roundabout ways we were doing certain things and was patted on the head and told to stick to my duties. My genuine interest into the sales and communication sides of the businesseses were brushed off. I didn't mention it in the previous post, but I would also say my gender had a lot to do with it. While I couldn't be in client meetings, I was asked to come in an hour early to make the 'boys' coffee. I wouldn't be interacting with clients at all, but I was expected to wear skirts. There's also a lot of kids that dial it in, so it's tough to tell someone that they should hire more fresh faces when you've gotta weigh who is there for the experience vs. who is there for the paycheck.
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  Sounds like you worked for idiots. Better employees would have noticed your seriousness and helped you develop your interest in the work I think.
  - 14y ago