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That kind of reasoning is what got us into Iraq. I'm simply suggesting thinking through the consequences rather than simply cheerleading. For example, would w

That kind of reasoning is what got us into Iraq. I'm simply suggesting thinking through the consequences rather than simply cheerleading. For example, would we be comfortable with 90% of science students being not from the US? What if we make a system where no one born in this country can actually afford to do graduate work? Remember, the foreign-born students don't have the kind of undergrad debt load that we have in the US.

blizkreeg 14y ago
You are so, so misguided in your thoughts. I came to this country for graduate studies and took on a loan for a portion of it, amounting to almost $20K. Took me the better part of 2 yrs to pay it back. I came from a modest family background. While I didn't have an undergrad loan, I certainly didn't have any money to back me up. Most foreigners grow up with far fewer resources than you did in this country. The USD is still stronger than 99% of currencies. While I don't dispute that college education is ridiculously overpriced here, that is a different, unrelated problem.
- programnature 14y ago
  This is not about you, this is about what is good for the country. Is it good for the country to disincentivize graduate work for people who are born here? Is it good for the country for every STEM lecturer to have bad english language skills? This is already the norm at many state schools, and makes people drop those subjects because they can't understand or relate to their teachers. Of course it is hard for immigrants to relate to the spoiled "fat" americans, but the social and cultural realities exist and are not trivial.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
mpyne 14y ago
I wouldn't be comfortable with 90% necessarily, but at the same time if these 90% want to come to the U.S. and remain (for at least some nominal period of time) and contribute to U.S. interests then I'd rather that they were over here working to make the country great instead of wherever they came from. Fixing education here in the U.S. is itself an important task but it's orthogonal to immigration. If our kids want to do basket-weaving instead of STEM then the next best thing is to let those from overseas who want to come to the U.S. and work actually do so. But there should be plenty of capacity in the universities for non-immigrants to get STEM majors if they want. At least I had no difficulty. Despite all the mud the U.S. has on its name internationally, the country is still in a great position to execute a "brain drain" (for lack of a better term) and it would be pretty foolish to miss out on that, especially as the world becomes increasingly specialized.
enraged_camel 14y ago
>>That kind of reasoning is what got us into Iraq. That's a pretty incredible kind of Godwin you just invoked there.

blizkreeg 14y ago

You are so, so misguided in your thoughts. I came to this country for graduate studies and took on a loan for a portion of it, amounting to almost $20K. Took me the better part of 2 yrs to pay it back. I came from a modest family background. While I didn't have an undergrad loan, I certainly didn't have any money to back me up. Most foreigners grow up with far fewer resources than you did in this country. The USD is still stronger than 99% of currencies. While I don't dispute that college education is ridiculously overpriced here, that is a different, unrelated problem.

programnature 14y ago
This is not about you, this is about what is good for the country. Is it good for the country to disincentivize graduate work for people who are born here? Is it good for the country for every STEM lecturer to have bad english language skills? This is already the norm at many state schools, and makes people drop those subjects because they can't understand or relate to their teachers. Of course it is hard for immigrants to relate to the spoiled "fat" americans, but the social and cultural realities exist and are not trivial.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

mpyne 14y ago

I wouldn't be comfortable with 90% necessarily, but at the same time if these 90% want to come to the U.S. and remain (for at least some nominal period of time) and contribute to U.S. interests then I'd rather that they were over here working to make the country great instead of wherever they came from. Fixing education here in the U.S. is itself an important task but it's orthogonal to immigration. If our kids want to do basket-weaving instead of STEM then the next best thing is to let those from overseas who want to come to the U.S. and work actually do so. But there should be plenty of capacity in the universities for non-immigrants to get STEM majors if they want. At least I had no difficulty. Despite all the mud the U.S. has on its name internationally, the country is still in a great position to execute a "brain drain" (for lack of a better term) and it would be pretty foolish to miss out on that, especially as the world becomes increasingly specialized.

enraged_camel 14y ago

>>That kind of reasoning is what got us into Iraq. That's a pretty incredible kind of Godwin you just invoked there.