7 ms·

Overeducated and underemployed

26 points by sonabinu 14y ago

randomdata 14y ago
1 in 5 of the general population have a bachelor's degree, so 1 in 7 seems expected, if not on the low side.
- drcube 14y ago
  Not if the reason people get those degrees is to get better jobs. If the proportion of degree holders is the same across all jobs, why should someone pay tens of thousands in tuition, plus the opportunity cost in lost wages, for that degree?
  - randomdata 14y ago
    I don't really think that is a realistic reason to pursue higher education. Without even getting into some of the deeper conversations, there are only so many "better" jobs to go around. 80% of the jobs out there pay less than $50K per year, and just $45K per year for 75% of the jobs. Meanwhile, if you are aged 25-29, 30% of your peers have a degree. Therefore, 33% of college graduates in that age group are basically guaranteed to make less than $50K per year and many of them will fail to even make the $45K threshold. Not to mention that in reality, percentage is even larger than that as a significant number of non-college graduates live in the top 25% of earners. Furthermore, 18% of university graduates fail to even earn $20K per year and just 24% of the top 1% have a non-graduate degree as their highest level of education attainment. I see no compelling reason to even begin to think you would go to college to get a better job, unless that job is in a specific field where the law requires (doctor, lawyer, etc.) Someone still has to drive the taxis. Having a degree doesn't put you above such work and the more people obtain their degrees, the greater chance someone with a degree will take on such work. With that said, college still has merit and should not be discounted. Finding a job at the end should be one of the last reasons you consider attending.
    - drcube 14y ago
      > Finding a job at the end should be one of the last reasons you consider attending. I agree with this if you're rich, or else qualify for a free education like a scholarship or the GI Bill. But for most people, college is a significant investment and should be treated like one. Why should someone take out mortgage sized amounts of debt for no other reason than to learn something interesting? Is that a responsible use of borrowed money?
      - randomdata 14y ago
        With such overwhelming evidence that a degree does not make for a good investment in most cases, and enrolment rates only increasing, there must be something else attracting people. My hunch is that people want to look important. Similarly, taking out a massive loan to drive a brand new BMW doesn't make financial sense either, but lots of people still do it because it shapes their image.
  - cek994 14y ago
    Put another way -- how many upper-middle class professionals (doctors/lawyers/engineers) would you say have graduated from college? Many, many more than 1 in 5. You can't deduce data about specific occupations from a broad statistical measure like overall percentage of bachelor's degrees in a population.
sonabinu 14y ago
more here http://centerforcollegeaffordability.org/research/studies/underemployment-of-college-graduates http://centerforcollegeaffordability.org/research/studies/un...
cafard 14y ago
It can be an immigrant's first job in the US. I remember years ago a cabbie from west Africa who had a Ph.D. in urban planning or some such field. He had left his country because he was on the outs with the regime there. As for bartenders, I'm surprised it's that few. Washington may be an outlier.
- evoxed 14y ago
  On the one hand, there's a lot of unique things you could learn as an urban planner by spending all of your working days driving a cab. On the other, that's not really a field you want to get behind in (unless you want to teach, I guess).
patja 14y ago
This reminds me of an EconTalk podcast from about 6 months ago where the assertion was made that college has become an extension of adolescence, as opposed to a direct path to a middle class career. Given that the ability to write and reason well are foundational to success in many careers, I am all for the benefits of a classical liberal arts course of study, but how many psychology and visual arts BA's can the economy reasonably reward with good paying jobs? http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/12/tabarrok_on_inn.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/12/tabarrok_on_inn.htm...
- mc32 14y ago
  I think in Western Europe the ratio might even be higher. I recall a conversation with a German several years ago and was told it was not uncommon for people doing blue collar jobs to have achieved some higher education. In any event, more education the better, even if not individually returning the time/money investment.
  - Spooky23 14y ago
    There's a difference between "blue collar" and a crappy service sector job. The blue collar person in many settings makes a decent wage and has alot of autonomy. A substantial number of NCOs in the Army have Masters degrees. HVAC guys often have BAs with substantial industry certifications. The person with a $250k MFA folding sweaters at the Gap for $8.50 an hour or the person with a law degree working as a bank teller are basically a rung up from casual labor with no career path.
- betterunix 14y ago
  Education is not just about jobs. The better educated people are, the harder it is to take advantage of them regardless of what sort of job they have. Communities benefit from having educated people living in them -- people who can solve problems, mediate disputes, and organize to improve the community's situation. A democracy requires an educated populace in order to ensure that rights are not violated, that bad laws are repealed, and that an aristocracy cannot hijack the system at everyone's expense (bonus points if you can name a major world power that has that problem). At the end of the day, that is what this is really about: not having a society ruled by an aristocracy. Public education is meant to ensure that poor people can receive a decent education, to ensure that society does not fall into a pattern where only rich people are educated enough to run the show.
rayiner 14y ago
I'm not sure what's so surprising about this. Cab drivers aren't exactly the bottom rung of the economic ladder. Cab companies don't rent out expensive cabs to just anyone, and driving involves capital costs (either buying your own taxi, or paying the rental, which can run $150+ per day). Right after the financial crisis, I had a cab driver who managed mortgage representatives at Countrywide before it went under. At the time there were zero jobs for people in the mortgage industry, and he was doing it to bring in some cash while working on starting a business. Employers don't treat foreign degrees equally with American degrees, so it's very common for engineers or even doctors with foreign credentials to work service jobs like driving cabs while they "launder" their foreign degree with U.S. schooling. My uncle was a doctor in Bangladesh and then emigrated to Australia. He worked as a bell hop, among other things, while he went through Australian medical school. He owns a private practice now in some resort town.
jcburnham 14y ago
Too bad those jobs are going to be replaced by machines.
- carlob 14y ago
  I sure hope my bartender doesn't get replaced by a machine.
  - jcburnham 14y ago
    It'll happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hJIkJ9x0-JQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h...
    - carlob 14y ago
      While making that might have been a fun project, that's not where I see myself spending my next night out. :) On a more serious note, the reason I go to a specific bar instead of another is often the fact that the bartender is a nice guy and I enjoy chatting with them. That's why I don't see some of these job replaced by machines anytime soo. Another example would be telemarketing: robocalling existed more or less since the phone itself, but people still find pushy telemarketers to be more effective than a machine. For starters it's far easier to hang up on a machine than on a person. And that's also why retail clerks are more effective than pop-up ads even if they serve more or less the same purpose: "I see you're looking at x would you be interested in y as well?".
  - SatvikBeri 14y ago
    Out of curiosity, why? Do you believe that a machine can't do as good a job mixing drinks, do you want the social element, or is there something else?
    - carlob 14y ago
      Definitely the social element. I almost never drink cocktails, it's usually a beer or wine, and I hope he's not mixing those. :)
jetti 14y ago
Being a taxi driver has some advantages (especially if you are an O/O), with the big one being you get to set your own schedule. On top of that, it can generate quite a decent amount of money. I had a friend in college who drove a cab in Chicago on the weekends and he would make at least a grand during his 12 hour shift. I didn't pry too much, so I don't know if that was usual or that semester was out of the ordinary. But I would imagine that it pays better than many of the other "low skill" jobs and can offer much more variety.
- groby_b 14y ago
  At least a grand? In 12 hours? Quick reality check: LAX has more expensive cabs than Chicago, but let's assume they're equal. A ~30 minute ride to the airport costs me, including tip, ~$40. A quick verify shows that Chicago is actually $41 for a 31 minute ride, no tip. (http://www.taxifarefinder.com/main.php?city=Chicago&from=Navy+Pier%2C+Inc%2C+East+Grand+Avenue%2C+Chicago%2C+IL&to=ORD http://www.taxifarefinder.com/main.php?city=Chicago&from...) Given that people need to get in/out of the cab, etc, I think we can stay with $40/30 minutes. That's $80 per hour. $960 if the 12 hours are completely booked solid and people tip well. And unless he's an independent operator with his own license (which would run him $300K - http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/bacp/publicvehicleinfo/medallionowners/2013mintaximedtransferfees.pdf http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/bacp/pub...), he doesn't get to keep all that. I'd think your buddy was maybe telling a slightly tall tale based on that one night where he ended up with almost a grand in cash at the end of the shift. :)
  - jetti 14y ago
    "I'd think your buddy was maybe telling a slightly tall tale based on that one night where he ended up with almost a grand in cash at the end of the shift. :)" Could be. I could be remembering it wrong too, it was 6 or so years ago :)
betterunix 14y ago
"Overeducated" implies that there is some upper-bound on the appropriate education a person should receive if they have a particular career. It is the sort of elitist, aristocracy-favoring view of the world that we should be trying to discourage. Of course, when going to college means taking on mountains of inescapable debt, not getting a high-paying job afterwards is problematic. That's why we need to change the way we pay for college education, so that we can have a society of well-educated independent thinkers, rather than one where people start out in life just a millimeter away from indentured servitude.
- jeffdavis 14y ago
  I would add to that: being a cab driver out of college doesn't mean you are making a career out of it. It's called an "entry-level" job for a reason.
  - muzz 14y ago
    Or a stop-gap job being taken on during a period of massive job destruction (something like 7M jobs were lost from 2007-2010)
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - larrys 14y ago
    Could also be an immigrant with a degree from another country that is learning the language or getting situated as well. That said the story doesn't point to the trend from 1970 till now. The data is available I'm assuming. But did this happen evenly over time or in the last 5 or 10 years or?
  - adrr 14y ago
    Entry level job is a job teaches your skills and gives you the experience to get a better job in the same field. Taxi cab driver isn't an entry level job, being an intern or assistant is an entry level job.
  - danilocampos 14y ago
zeffr 14y ago
I think it's a bit more important to look at which degree was obtained, not just that a degree was obtained. I don't seem to be having any issues here with a CS degree.
- philjohn 14y ago
  And from where.
  - logn 14y ago
    This has got to be another one of the biggest fallacies. Yes, I would love to see from where as well, and I guarantee it's a minor factor in income. After equalizing for grades, experience, connections, charisma, IQ, motivation, and career goals, I doubt the institution matters much. As a hiring manager, I place little value on the school. It's usually just a function of income, race, personal preference, and legacy status.
motters 14y ago
The whole concept of overeducation seems foreign to me. Surely people should strive to be as educated as they can or want to be. The background assumption is that education isn't really about education, and is instead merely about training people for jobs. If people were being trained for work which didn't exist then that would certainly be a problem, but as I understand it that's not really what universities are for.
- fennecfoxen 14y ago
  "Surely people should strive to be as educated as they can or want to be." No one will argue that, all else being equal, more education is better. Education's nice. So are lots of other things that people want from life, e.g. leisure, money, exercise, real-world job experience, entertainment, participation in the arts, family time, spirituality, world travel, what-have-you. But we make trade-offs in life, and getting a big fat expensive degree and making very little use of it is quite possibly too much "education" at the cost of "money" and other valuable things. It's perfectly meaningful to consider that "overeducation".
justin_vanw 14y ago
This has the usual journalist bias of putting all graduates in the same bucket. I would like to see the same statistic, but with Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, EE, Mechanical Eng., etc all in their own buckets. There seems to be some kind of outrage that you can go to a good school and get a 4 year degree and end up working with people who just graduated high-school. New grads were probably led up the garden path and not given realistic expectations. On the other hand everybody knows there are no jobs for English, Communications, Journalism, or any of the various 'Unemployment Studies' programs. Everyone knows this, it's past common knowledge and well on it's way to becoming a cliche. Basically, I guess you can boil down what I'm saying as, "If you partied in college, and didn't take classes that were hard: you didn't learn anything, and that is why nobody will pay you for access to your training." It used to be that certain kinds of jobs were reserved for a 'college man', but that was because that was synonymous with white and upper middle to upper class. The great liar, statistics, said that a college degree was highly correlated with lots of great outcomes, higher income, better employment, etc. The government started laying lots of money into getting everyone to go to college, without realizing that people weren't paying for the college part of college grads, they were paying for the stuff that college was correlated with. Like if the British started sending more people to Eton because they wanted to increase the size of the royal family. These days who you know matters as much as ever. However, and this is kind of new, since the 20th century (or post Edison anyway), you can have a very comfortable and low risk life regardless of where you started, if you can learn enough technical stuff. Rich people and companies will pay to rent your brain all day. They will only pay, though, if your brain can do things that most brains can't, it's like anything else, value comes from scarcity. So, if you are going to Harvard and your dad went to Harvard and your parents friends are as rich as they are, study whatever, you'll be fine. If your parents had to show up to work and had a boss, or worse if you are on scholarship, for the love of god study something with some cash value. “I must study politics and war, that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy, natural history and naval architecture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, tapestry, and porcelain.” - John Adams
- xijuan 14y ago
  I don't like what you said. You made it sound like that English and Journalism are easy majors. Even though it is harder to find jobs with those majors right now, they are not necessarily easy majors. In fact, depending on your talents,these majors can be very hard. Taking me as an example, I can never imagine myself majoring in English or Journalism because I dislike writing and I have never done too well in my English courses. To me these two majors would be harder than Math and Chemistry. On the other hand, my friend who is a history major is naturally good at writing but has very difficult times understanding Math related materials. I always admire her for her writing skills and always ask her for help when it comes to writing application and essays. She always wishes that she could be good at Math. Also what majors make good money also depends on the time we are living in. I don't know about American history but I know in Chinese history during the 1910s,people with arts majors would make more money. At that times, China was going through an intellectual revolution in which Western ideas were being introduced. At that times, many scholars would abandon their engineering, economic and medicine degrees and become writers or journalists. Edit: I don't live in China....
greghinch 14y ago
"Overeducated" is probably not the correct term here. Maybe something like "mis-educated" would be more suitable. There's nothing wrong with wanting to learn and study interesting subjects. Gone are the times when a college degree alone will land you a job. You need employable skills if you want to be paid these days, and things like History, English, and most of the Liberal Arts degrees don't equate to that.
- numeromancer 14y ago
  How about “overschooled”.
michaelochurch 14y ago
The Left wants everyone to go to college because if you educate the proles, they get pissed off about their situation and the waste of their life at the hands of an entrenched elite, and you get a violent revolution (in theory). The Center wants everyone to go to college because it's an easy way to throw money at deep social problems under the pretenses of improving equality (in theory). The Corporate Right likes this whole mess because it's a sorting mechanism paid-for by the people being sorted. I won't even pretend to know what the Radical Right wants. Religious indoctrination, perhaps? They aren't much of a player in the higher-ed debates. The Corporate Right is the only party that is actually getting what it wants.

26 points by sonabinu 14y ago

randomdata 14y ago

1 in 5 of the general population have a bachelor's degree, so 1 in 7 seems expected, if not on the low side.

drcube 14y ago
Not if the reason people get those degrees is to get better jobs. If the proportion of degree holders is the same across all jobs, why should someone pay tens of thousands in tuition, plus the opportunity cost in lost wages, for that degree?
- randomdata 14y ago
  I don't really think that is a realistic reason to pursue higher education. Without even getting into some of the deeper conversations, there are only so many "better" jobs to go around. 80% of the jobs out there pay less than $50K per year, and just $45K per year for 75% of the jobs. Meanwhile, if you are aged 25-29, 30% of your peers have a degree. Therefore, 33% of college graduates in that age group are basically guaranteed to make less than $50K per year and many of them will fail to even make the $45K threshold. Not to mention that in reality, percentage is even larger than that as a significant number of non-college graduates live in the top 25% of earners. Furthermore, 18% of university graduates fail to even earn $20K per year and just 24% of the top 1% have a non-graduate degree as their highest level of education attainment. I see no compelling reason to even begin to think you would go to college to get a better job, unless that job is in a specific field where the law requires (doctor, lawyer, etc.) Someone still has to drive the taxis. Having a degree doesn't put you above such work and the more people obtain their degrees, the greater chance someone with a degree will take on such work. With that said, college still has merit and should not be discounted. Finding a job at the end should be one of the last reasons you consider attending.
  - drcube 14y ago
    > Finding a job at the end should be one of the last reasons you consider attending. I agree with this if you're rich, or else qualify for a free education like a scholarship or the GI Bill. But for most people, college is a significant investment and should be treated like one. Why should someone take out mortgage sized amounts of debt for no other reason than to learn something interesting? Is that a responsible use of borrowed money?
    - randomdata 14y ago
      With such overwhelming evidence that a degree does not make for a good investment in most cases, and enrolment rates only increasing, there must be something else attracting people. My hunch is that people want to look important. Similarly, taking out a massive loan to drive a brand new BMW doesn't make financial sense either, but lots of people still do it because it shapes their image.
- cek994 14y ago
  Put another way -- how many upper-middle class professionals (doctors/lawyers/engineers) would you say have graduated from college? Many, many more than 1 in 5. You can't deduce data about specific occupations from a broad statistical measure like overall percentage of bachelor's degrees in a population.

sonabinu 14y ago

more here http://centerforcollegeaffordability.org/research/studies/underemployment-of-college-graduates http://centerforcollegeaffordability.org/research/studies/un...

cafard 14y ago

It can be an immigrant's first job in the US. I remember years ago a cabbie from west Africa who had a Ph.D. in urban planning or some such field. He had left his country because he was on the outs with the regime there. As for bartenders, I'm surprised it's that few. Washington may be an outlier.

evoxed 14y ago
On the one hand, there's a lot of unique things you could learn as an urban planner by spending all of your working days driving a cab. On the other, that's not really a field you want to get behind in (unless you want to teach, I guess).

patja 14y ago

This reminds me of an EconTalk podcast from about 6 months ago where the assertion was made that college has become an extension of adolescence, as opposed to a direct path to a middle class career. Given that the ability to write and reason well are foundational to success in many careers, I am all for the benefits of a classical liberal arts course of study, but how many psychology and visual arts BA's can the economy reasonably reward with good paying jobs? http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/12/tabarrok_on_inn.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/12/tabarrok_on_inn.htm...

mc32 14y ago
I think in Western Europe the ratio might even be higher. I recall a conversation with a German several years ago and was told it was not uncommon for people doing blue collar jobs to have achieved some higher education. In any event, more education the better, even if not individually returning the time/money investment.
- Spooky23 14y ago
  There's a difference between "blue collar" and a crappy service sector job. The blue collar person in many settings makes a decent wage and has alot of autonomy. A substantial number of NCOs in the Army have Masters degrees. HVAC guys often have BAs with substantial industry certifications. The person with a $250k MFA folding sweaters at the Gap for $8.50 an hour or the person with a law degree working as a bank teller are basically a rung up from casual labor with no career path.
betterunix 14y ago
Education is not just about jobs. The better educated people are, the harder it is to take advantage of them regardless of what sort of job they have. Communities benefit from having educated people living in them -- people who can solve problems, mediate disputes, and organize to improve the community's situation. A democracy requires an educated populace in order to ensure that rights are not violated, that bad laws are repealed, and that an aristocracy cannot hijack the system at everyone's expense (bonus points if you can name a major world power that has that problem). At the end of the day, that is what this is really about: not having a society ruled by an aristocracy. Public education is meant to ensure that poor people can receive a decent education, to ensure that society does not fall into a pattern where only rich people are educated enough to run the show.

rayiner 14y ago

I'm not sure what's so surprising about this. Cab drivers aren't exactly the bottom rung of the economic ladder. Cab companies don't rent out expensive cabs to just anyone, and driving involves capital costs (either buying your own taxi, or paying the rental, which can run $150+ per day). Right after the financial crisis, I had a cab driver who managed mortgage representatives at Countrywide before it went under. At the time there were zero jobs for people in the mortgage industry, and he was doing it to bring in some cash while working on starting a business. Employers don't treat foreign degrees equally with American degrees, so it's very common for engineers or even doctors with foreign credentials to work service jobs like driving cabs while they "launder" their foreign degree with U.S. schooling. My uncle was a doctor in Bangladesh and then emigrated to Australia. He worked as a bell hop, among other things, while he went through Australian medical school. He owns a private practice now in some resort town.

jcburnham 14y ago

Too bad those jobs are going to be replaced by machines.

carlob 14y ago
I sure hope my bartender doesn't get replaced by a machine.
- jcburnham 14y ago
  It'll happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hJIkJ9x0-JQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h...
  - carlob 14y ago
    While making that might have been a fun project, that's not where I see myself spending my next night out. :) On a more serious note, the reason I go to a specific bar instead of another is often the fact that the bartender is a nice guy and I enjoy chatting with them. That's why I don't see some of these job replaced by machines anytime soo. Another example would be telemarketing: robocalling existed more or less since the phone itself, but people still find pushy telemarketers to be more effective than a machine. For starters it's far easier to hang up on a machine than on a person. And that's also why retail clerks are more effective than pop-up ads even if they serve more or less the same purpose: "I see you're looking at x would you be interested in y as well?".
- SatvikBeri 14y ago
  Out of curiosity, why? Do you believe that a machine can't do as good a job mixing drinks, do you want the social element, or is there something else?
  - carlob 14y ago
    Definitely the social element. I almost never drink cocktails, it's usually a beer or wine, and I hope he's not mixing those. :)

jetti 14y ago

Being a taxi driver has some advantages (especially if you are an O/O), with the big one being you get to set your own schedule. On top of that, it can generate quite a decent amount of money. I had a friend in college who drove a cab in Chicago on the weekends and he would make at least a grand during his 12 hour shift. I didn't pry too much, so I don't know if that was usual or that semester was out of the ordinary. But I would imagine that it pays better than many of the other "low skill" jobs and can offer much more variety.

groby_b 14y ago
At least a grand? In 12 hours? Quick reality check: LAX has more expensive cabs than Chicago, but let's assume they're equal. A ~30 minute ride to the airport costs me, including tip, ~$40. A quick verify shows that Chicago is actually $41 for a 31 minute ride, no tip. (http://www.taxifarefinder.com/main.php?city=Chicago&from=Navy+Pier%2C+Inc%2C+East+Grand+Avenue%2C+Chicago%2C+IL&to=ORD http://www.taxifarefinder.com/main.php?city=Chicago&from...) Given that people need to get in/out of the cab, etc, I think we can stay with $40/30 minutes. That's $80 per hour. $960 if the 12 hours are completely booked solid and people tip well. And unless he's an independent operator with his own license (which would run him $300K - http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/bacp/publicvehicleinfo/medallionowners/2013mintaximedtransferfees.pdf http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/bacp/pub...), he doesn't get to keep all that. I'd think your buddy was maybe telling a slightly tall tale based on that one night where he ended up with almost a grand in cash at the end of the shift. :)
- jetti 14y ago
  "I'd think your buddy was maybe telling a slightly tall tale based on that one night where he ended up with almost a grand in cash at the end of the shift. :)" Could be. I could be remembering it wrong too, it was 6 or so years ago :)

betterunix 14y ago

"Overeducated" implies that there is some upper-bound on the appropriate education a person should receive if they have a particular career. It is the sort of elitist, aristocracy-favoring view of the world that we should be trying to discourage. Of course, when going to college means taking on mountains of inescapable debt, not getting a high-paying job afterwards is problematic. That's why we need to change the way we pay for college education, so that we can have a society of well-educated independent thinkers, rather than one where people start out in life just a millimeter away from indentured servitude.

jeffdavis 14y ago
I would add to that: being a cab driver out of college doesn't mean you are making a career out of it. It's called an "entry-level" job for a reason.
- muzz 14y ago
  Or a stop-gap job being taken on during a period of massive job destruction (something like 7M jobs were lost from 2007-2010)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- larrys 14y ago
  Could also be an immigrant with a degree from another country that is learning the language or getting situated as well. That said the story doesn't point to the trend from 1970 till now. The data is available I'm assuming. But did this happen evenly over time or in the last 5 or 10 years or?
- adrr 14y ago
  Entry level job is a job teaches your skills and gives you the experience to get a better job in the same field. Taxi cab driver isn't an entry level job, being an intern or assistant is an entry level job.
- danilocampos 14y ago

zeffr 14y ago

I think it's a bit more important to look at which degree was obtained, not just that a degree was obtained. I don't seem to be having any issues here with a CS degree.

philjohn 14y ago
And from where.
- logn 14y ago
  This has got to be another one of the biggest fallacies. Yes, I would love to see from where as well, and I guarantee it's a minor factor in income. After equalizing for grades, experience, connections, charisma, IQ, motivation, and career goals, I doubt the institution matters much. As a hiring manager, I place little value on the school. It's usually just a function of income, race, personal preference, and legacy status.

motters 14y ago

The whole concept of overeducation seems foreign to me. Surely people should strive to be as educated as they can or want to be. The background assumption is that education isn't really about education, and is instead merely about training people for jobs. If people were being trained for work which didn't exist then that would certainly be a problem, but as I understand it that's not really what universities are for.

fennecfoxen 14y ago
"Surely people should strive to be as educated as they can or want to be." No one will argue that, all else being equal, more education is better. Education's nice. So are lots of other things that people want from life, e.g. leisure, money, exercise, real-world job experience, entertainment, participation in the arts, family time, spirituality, world travel, what-have-you. But we make trade-offs in life, and getting a big fat expensive degree and making very little use of it is quite possibly too much "education" at the cost of "money" and other valuable things. It's perfectly meaningful to consider that "overeducation".

justin_vanw 14y ago

This has the usual journalist bias of putting all graduates in the same bucket. I would like to see the same statistic, but with Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, EE, Mechanical Eng., etc all in their own buckets. There seems to be some kind of outrage that you can go to a good school and get a 4 year degree and end up working with people who just graduated high-school. New grads were probably led up the garden path and not given realistic expectations. On the other hand everybody knows there are no jobs for English, Communications, Journalism, or any of the various 'Unemployment Studies' programs. Everyone knows this, it's past common knowledge and well on it's way to becoming a cliche. Basically, I guess you can boil down what I'm saying as, "If you partied in college, and didn't take classes that were hard: you didn't learn anything, and that is why nobody will pay you for access to your training." It used to be that certain kinds of jobs were reserved for a 'college man', but that was because that was synonymous with white and upper middle to upper class. The great liar, statistics, said that a college degree was highly correlated with lots of great outcomes, higher income, better employment, etc. The government started laying lots of money into getting everyone to go to college, without realizing that people weren't paying for the college part of college grads, they were paying for the stuff that college was correlated with. Like if the British started sending more people to Eton because they wanted to increase the size of the royal family. These days who you know matters as much as ever. However, and this is kind of new, since the 20th century (or post Edison anyway), you can have a very comfortable and low risk life regardless of where you started, if you can learn enough technical stuff. Rich people and companies will pay to rent your brain all day. They will only pay, though, if your brain can do things that most brains can't, it's like anything else, value comes from scarcity. So, if you are going to Harvard and your dad went to Harvard and your parents friends are as rich as they are, study whatever, you'll be fine. If your parents had to show up to work and had a boss, or worse if you are on scholarship, for the love of god study something with some cash value. “I must study politics and war, that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy, natural history and naval architecture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, tapestry, and porcelain.” - John Adams

xijuan 14y ago
I don't like what you said. You made it sound like that English and Journalism are easy majors. Even though it is harder to find jobs with those majors right now, they are not necessarily easy majors. In fact, depending on your talents,these majors can be very hard. Taking me as an example, I can never imagine myself majoring in English or Journalism because I dislike writing and I have never done too well in my English courses. To me these two majors would be harder than Math and Chemistry. On the other hand, my friend who is a history major is naturally good at writing but has very difficult times understanding Math related materials. I always admire her for her writing skills and always ask her for help when it comes to writing application and essays. She always wishes that she could be good at Math. Also what majors make good money also depends on the time we are living in. I don't know about American history but I know in Chinese history during the 1910s,people with arts majors would make more money. At that times, China was going through an intellectual revolution in which Western ideas were being introduced. At that times, many scholars would abandon their engineering, economic and medicine degrees and become writers or journalists. Edit: I don't live in China....

greghinch 14y ago

"Overeducated" is probably not the correct term here. Maybe something like "mis-educated" would be more suitable. There's nothing wrong with wanting to learn and study interesting subjects. Gone are the times when a college degree alone will land you a job. You need employable skills if you want to be paid these days, and things like History, English, and most of the Liberal Arts degrees don't equate to that.

numeromancer 14y ago
How about “overschooled”.

michaelochurch 14y ago

The Left wants everyone to go to college because if you educate the proles, they get pissed off about their situation and the waste of their life at the hands of an entrenched elite, and you get a violent revolution (in theory). The Center wants everyone to go to college because it's an easy way to throw money at deep social problems under the pretenses of improving equality (in theory). The Corporate Right likes this whole mess because it's a sorting mechanism paid-for by the people being sorted. I won't even pretend to know what the Radical Right wants. Religious indoctrination, perhaps? They aren't much of a player in the higher-ed debates. The Corporate Right is the only party that is actually getting what it wants.