4 ms·

Two developers working for 3 months feels more like 1.0 than MVP territory to me. $60k is a lot of investment simply to test a concept, and would be a luxury o

Two developers working for 3 months feels more like 1.0 than MVP territory to me. $60k is a lot of investment simply to test a concept, and would be a luxury out of the price range of most small businesses, let alone individual entrepreneurial subject matter experts who want to build a product - even really committed ones with money to spend. Assuming you actually want to win the business, why not pitch a much smaller project to help them tease out some mockups and build 1 or 2 of the main application flows to MVP level? This wins you the smaller engagement now with the likelihood of the bigger piece of work once the customer has been away and shown the concept to customers. This is why I don't really like these $2k and $5k MVP packages that people are pitching on HN lately. Your iterations should start with mockups rather than an MVP.

kranner 14y ago
> Four weeks and $6,000? Sure, why not. IF I was shooting for a contract. Therein lies the key. I didn’t care what happened after each of those meetings. My plate is pretty full right now. My hunch is that the people who quoted much lower estimates and timeframes were shooting for the development work. Apparently, OP is not particularly interested in getting the job. The point of this post isn't entirely clear to me.
- recycleme 14y ago
  His job was to consult and help guide the projects.
- mbesto 14y ago
  > OP is not particularly interested in getting the job It depends on what job you're referring to. A job that pays and keeps your profit margin and revenues consistent, or a job that could potentially end up costing you way more than you thought? He's pointing out that many clients come to him with completely unrealistic views on developing, and yet are asking an expert (him) to advise him on how to properly develop something.
tudorizer 14y ago
True. 3 months and two devs does sound like a pretty solid idea, beyond MVP. The problem could be on the client side who demands too much from a risky idea.
mbesto 14y ago
I've tried it before...people don't simply want to pay for mockups and vendors don't want to waste time developing them for free (in the hope that they may win the business). I think the OP rightfully addresses a deeper issue at stake here - "I have no vested interest in the outcomes of any of the projects and I wish them best of luck." Or perhaps more aptly put - stop trying to cater to these people, it's a waste of your time. The world is full of people thinking that what people like Gates, Zuckerberg, etc. have accomplished is both simple and repeatable.
- readme 14y ago
  If you're willing to work more closely with your developers, and you're a cool person, you can skip wireframes altogether. Ever build an app for yourself? Did you wireframe it? I bet you didn't.
  - mbesto 14y ago
    > If you're willing to work more closely with your developers, and you're a cool person, you can skip wireframes altogether. Totally agree, but it's so rare to find a client-agency relationship like that in the web dev space. > Ever build an app for yourself? Did you wireframe it? I bet you didn't. Yes, I have built an app for myself. I've definitely wireframed it. I usually go through a crapload of wireframes, HTML mockups, etc. It's incredibly difficult (for me) to just develop without at least a starting point either written or in my mind.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    If you build an app for yourself you probably have the requirements and wireframes welded into your brain since it's likely being developed to solve a problem that you encounter on a daily basis such as managing your dotfiles between all of your VPS instances. When you're developing something to solve a problem you could never even imagine having, say wardrobe management software for the wife of a senior politician you're probably going to need those wireframes.

kranner 14y ago

> Four weeks and $6,000? Sure, why not. IF I was shooting for a contract. Therein lies the key. I didn’t care what happened after each of those meetings. My plate is pretty full right now. My hunch is that the people who quoted much lower estimates and timeframes were shooting for the development work. Apparently, OP is not particularly interested in getting the job. The point of this post isn't entirely clear to me.

recycleme 14y ago
His job was to consult and help guide the projects.
mbesto 14y ago
> OP is not particularly interested in getting the job It depends on what job you're referring to. A job that pays and keeps your profit margin and revenues consistent, or a job that could potentially end up costing you way more than you thought? He's pointing out that many clients come to him with completely unrealistic views on developing, and yet are asking an expert (him) to advise him on how to properly develop something.

tudorizer 14y ago

True. 3 months and two devs does sound like a pretty solid idea, beyond MVP. The problem could be on the client side who demands too much from a risky idea.

mbesto 14y ago

I've tried it before...people don't simply want to pay for mockups and vendors don't want to waste time developing them for free (in the hope that they may win the business). I think the OP rightfully addresses a deeper issue at stake here - "I have no vested interest in the outcomes of any of the projects and I wish them best of luck." Or perhaps more aptly put - stop trying to cater to these people, it's a waste of your time. The world is full of people thinking that what people like Gates, Zuckerberg, etc. have accomplished is both simple and repeatable.

readme 14y ago
If you're willing to work more closely with your developers, and you're a cool person, you can skip wireframes altogether. Ever build an app for yourself? Did you wireframe it? I bet you didn't.
- mbesto 14y ago
  > If you're willing to work more closely with your developers, and you're a cool person, you can skip wireframes altogether. Totally agree, but it's so rare to find a client-agency relationship like that in the web dev space. > Ever build an app for yourself? Did you wireframe it? I bet you didn't. Yes, I have built an app for myself. I've definitely wireframed it. I usually go through a crapload of wireframes, HTML mockups, etc. It's incredibly difficult (for me) to just develop without at least a starting point either written or in my mind.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  If you build an app for yourself you probably have the requirements and wireframes welded into your brain since it's likely being developed to solve a problem that you encounter on a daily basis such as managing your dotfiles between all of your VPS instances. When you're developing something to solve a problem you could never even imagine having, say wardrobe management software for the wife of a senior politician you're probably going to need those wireframes.