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What a thoughtful essay. "But it uses a silly writing device to illustrate a point it could have just made plainly!" Whoa there, critical-thinking-by-the-number

What a thoughtful essay. "But it uses a silly writing device to illustrate a point it could have just made plainly!" Whoa there, critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy, maybe the article is also about fashion. As a child, I considered style choices a silly and inconsequential distraction from the beautiful truths of the universe: e^(ipi) + 1 doesn't care what I'm wearing, so neither should I, therefore it doesn't matter, QED. While today I still wish fashion would just go away so I could wear this conference t-shirt in peace, I contend it offers a reflection of who we are. Consider that while half the Senior Developers of the world can't program their way out of a FizzBuzz test, and half the world can't even read at all, everyone can look at someone's dress and decide if it's fashionable for their demographic. "No, it offers a reflection of what the establishment wants us to be!" I'll leave it to the reader to reconcile those two views. "But I just care about finishing Project Euler problems in APL so I just decide to wear sandals and this old shirt like all my friends!" Fashion mattering doesn't depend on you caring. Even you, APL-man, know Zuck couldn't wear his hoodie working for Quinn Emanuel unless he owned it (real question: how many people show up in suits at facebook?). I was shopping for pretty scarves (!) with a product designer and suggested that ads are the clearest reflection of what a given demographic is. He agreed so quickly I wondered if I were late to the party. So when the Scientology ad in the Atlantic showed up, I thought of my favorite TLP quotation: if you're reading it, it's for you. The obvious question was "why is the Atlantic publishing this!?" The more depressing question is "why am I in Scientology's target demo?" Fashion is an advertisement about yourself. "But the relationship is not always so obvious!" Hence the hoodie the world's richest web geek refuses to remove. "But I don't care what Zuckerberg wears!" If you're reading it, it's for you.

pdog 14y ago
TLP: "The Last Psychiatrist" http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/ http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/
kevinpet 14y ago
"everyone can look at someone's dress and decide if it's fashionable for their demographic." You may have forgotten where you are discussing this topic. I certainly have no clue whether something is fashionable. I'd be hard pressed to tell you if two colors go together. I do no know if I dress more or less formally than my coworkers, or if my normal clothes present any sort of image. My style is not a conscious rejection of fashion, it is simply some clothes that I've concluded aren't too far outside what I'm expected to wear and therefore don't make me stand out.
- petercooper 14y ago
  You may have forgotten where you are discussing this topic. I couldn't blame anyone for this stereotype but I don't think it's true. I suspect quite a lot of people here are into or have a nose for fashion (though not necessarily in the haute couture/catwalk sense).
  - vidarh 14y ago
    If nothing else, anyone who visits e.g. Silicon Valley and hangs out with geeks there, will quickly start picking out the "geek uniform". I find it funny when fellow geeks thinks they're clueless about fashion, and still manage to dress in very specific ways that makes them recognisable as a group. That is fashion, even if they're not following mainstream fashion. The first time I visited the Bay Area, I stood out like a sore thumb because I didn't fit into "Bay Area geek fashion" (I dressed too "smart" because it was my first business trip abroad). I see that here in London too - e.g. if a developer comes into the office in a shirt, it tends to elicit comments. There are even small but noticeable differences between how the developers and designers dress.
    - sopooneo 14y ago
      For my own clarification, do you mean that, in London, if a developer comes into the office in a dress shirt they stand out as overly formal? Or do you mean if they come in with only a shirt (ie no tie and jacket) they stand out as under-dressed?
      - pyre 14y ago
        Maybe he worked in the London porn industry, and any shirt is over-dressed.
- subsystem 14y ago
  Don't confuse fashion theory and the fashion industry. Geek culture, especially in SV, seems to have a quite specific anti-fashion with trickle-up influences. While many swear they aren't fashion conscience, they actually have quite strong connotations to things like suits.
argonaut 14y ago
The problem is that, in addition to what I've already said, the essay itself does not do a good job at making a point. Sure, it gesticulates at some points. Sure, you could assume the author is trying to say X, but I think that is one's own projection of the essay's vague intent. In fact, we have two comments here which potentially illustrate what I mean. You argue that the article is about fashion. Someone else argues that it's about social privilege. I argue that it's so vague that it's really about nothing. I'm not sure who you're calling a "critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy," but since I was one of those criticizing the article, I'll respond that it is wrong of you to assume that our criticism must be due to the fact that we/I don't understand that fashion in some ways represents who we are. Because I certainly recognize that fashion represents not only who we are, but who we want to be. But that does not absolve the article of having made no meaningfully substantiated conclusions apart from interesting points about the anonymizing use of hoodies. If you asked me, the only reason Zuckerberg wears/wore hoodies is because he is/was a twenty-something. In his case it has nothing to do with anonymity/surveillance, etc. etc. They're just what was in fashion when he was in college. They're still in fashion. I wear them. They're comfortable. For youth, they're not uncool to wear. A suit would be uncool. Imagine all the grief you'd get if you wore a suit to high school. EDIT (reply to below): While your reply may or may not be accurate, I think the fact that this is yet another interpretation of what the author's point makes my argument even clearer, that the essay has no point at all.
- go37pi 14y ago
  I liked the article but would agree that it may have benefited from being more explicit in its writing. Here's what I got out of it. Maly asks, "Why would you continue to wear a hoodie even though you're hot and would feel better not wearing it?" The answer that @kevinalexbrown implies and I'd agree with is that fashion is an advertisement about yourself. But that's not all. When the advertisement is more important than the person, even if you would feel better without the hoodie, you keep it on, to feed your image. Whether that's right or wrong in the general case is beyond my scope to say. Maly is using Zuckerberg's choice as a prism on facebook and modern tech in general, saying that those who adopt facebook will have to make similar decisions, that people who always believe they are being watched may elevate the need to project an image over other more human needs. The key to the article is that Maly believes Zuckerbergmay have kept his hoodie on because it was more uncomfortable to take it off than to experience physical discomfort, and that people who are being watched may do the same. I enjoyed the vignettes but Maly could've benefited from highlighting Zuckerberg's choice as the "strange thing" that his article grew out of and then using the history of the hoodie as a layer on top of the "strange thing" instead of juxtaposing the two threads.
lelandbatey 14y ago
I'd very much like to re-emphasize this point: > Fashion mattering doesn't depend on you caring. In general, there are actually quite a few things like this in the world. Just because it is out of the scope of your concern does not mean it isn't of any concern.
- npsimons 14y ago
  And yet, when we try to point this universal truth out to people about science and technology, we are scoffed at. In one hundred years, will it matter what any of us are wearing today?
philwelch 14y ago
I can't tell whether or not you're facetiously spoofing the style of the article here.
Lost_BiomedE 14y ago
“A fashion is merely a form of ugliness so unbearable that we are compelled to alter it every six months.” Oscar Wilde There is a threshold where good enough is good enough. Once above that threshold, your e^(ipi)+1 still rings true. It is one of many of our versions of the peacock frock.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

pdog 14y ago

TLP: "The Last Psychiatrist" http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/ http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/

kevinpet 14y ago

"everyone can look at someone's dress and decide if it's fashionable for their demographic." You may have forgotten where you are discussing this topic. I certainly have no clue whether something is fashionable. I'd be hard pressed to tell you if two colors go together. I do no know if I dress more or less formally than my coworkers, or if my normal clothes present any sort of image. My style is not a conscious rejection of fashion, it is simply some clothes that I've concluded aren't too far outside what I'm expected to wear and therefore don't make me stand out.

petercooper 14y ago
You may have forgotten where you are discussing this topic. I couldn't blame anyone for this stereotype but I don't think it's true. I suspect quite a lot of people here are into or have a nose for fashion (though not necessarily in the haute couture/catwalk sense).
- vidarh 14y ago
  If nothing else, anyone who visits e.g. Silicon Valley and hangs out with geeks there, will quickly start picking out the "geek uniform". I find it funny when fellow geeks thinks they're clueless about fashion, and still manage to dress in very specific ways that makes them recognisable as a group. That is fashion, even if they're not following mainstream fashion. The first time I visited the Bay Area, I stood out like a sore thumb because I didn't fit into "Bay Area geek fashion" (I dressed too "smart" because it was my first business trip abroad). I see that here in London too - e.g. if a developer comes into the office in a shirt, it tends to elicit comments. There are even small but noticeable differences between how the developers and designers dress.
  - sopooneo 14y ago
    For my own clarification, do you mean that, in London, if a developer comes into the office in a dress shirt they stand out as overly formal? Or do you mean if they come in with only a shirt (ie no tie and jacket) they stand out as under-dressed?
    - pyre 14y ago
      Maybe he worked in the London porn industry, and any shirt is over-dressed.
subsystem 14y ago
Don't confuse fashion theory and the fashion industry. Geek culture, especially in SV, seems to have a quite specific anti-fashion with trickle-up influences. While many swear they aren't fashion conscience, they actually have quite strong connotations to things like suits.

argonaut 14y ago

The problem is that, in addition to what I've already said, the essay itself does not do a good job at making a point. Sure, it gesticulates at some points. Sure, you could assume the author is trying to say X, but I think that is one's own projection of the essay's vague intent. In fact, we have two comments here which potentially illustrate what I mean. You argue that the article is about fashion. Someone else argues that it's about social privilege. I argue that it's so vague that it's really about nothing. I'm not sure who you're calling a "critical-thinking-by-the-numbers guy," but since I was one of those criticizing the article, I'll respond that it is wrong of you to assume that our criticism must be due to the fact that we/I don't understand that fashion in some ways represents who we are. Because I certainly recognize that fashion represents not only who we are, but who we want to be. But that does not absolve the article of having made no meaningfully substantiated conclusions apart from interesting points about the anonymizing use of hoodies. If you asked me, the only reason Zuckerberg wears/wore hoodies is because he is/was a twenty-something. In his case it has nothing to do with anonymity/surveillance, etc. etc. They're just what was in fashion when he was in college. They're still in fashion. I wear them. They're comfortable. For youth, they're not uncool to wear. A suit would be uncool. Imagine all the grief you'd get if you wore a suit to high school. EDIT (reply to below): While your reply may or may not be accurate, I think the fact that this is yet another interpretation of what the author's point makes my argument even clearer, that the essay has no point at all.

go37pi 14y ago
I liked the article but would agree that it may have benefited from being more explicit in its writing. Here's what I got out of it. Maly asks, "Why would you continue to wear a hoodie even though you're hot and would feel better not wearing it?" The answer that @kevinalexbrown implies and I'd agree with is that fashion is an advertisement about yourself. But that's not all. When the advertisement is more important than the person, even if you would feel better without the hoodie, you keep it on, to feed your image. Whether that's right or wrong in the general case is beyond my scope to say. Maly is using Zuckerberg's choice as a prism on facebook and modern tech in general, saying that those who adopt facebook will have to make similar decisions, that people who always believe they are being watched may elevate the need to project an image over other more human needs. The key to the article is that Maly believes Zuckerbergmay have kept his hoodie on because it was more uncomfortable to take it off than to experience physical discomfort, and that people who are being watched may do the same. I enjoyed the vignettes but Maly could've benefited from highlighting Zuckerberg's choice as the "strange thing" that his article grew out of and then using the history of the hoodie as a layer on top of the "strange thing" instead of juxtaposing the two threads.

lelandbatey 14y ago

I'd very much like to re-emphasize this point: > Fashion mattering doesn't depend on you caring. In general, there are actually quite a few things like this in the world. Just because it is out of the scope of your concern does not mean it isn't of any concern.

npsimons 14y ago
And yet, when we try to point this universal truth out to people about science and technology, we are scoffed at. In one hundred years, will it matter what any of us are wearing today?

philwelch 14y ago

I can't tell whether or not you're facetiously spoofing the style of the article here.

Lost_BiomedE 14y ago

“A fashion is merely a form of ugliness so unbearable that we are compelled to alter it every six months.” Oscar Wilde There is a threshold where good enough is good enough. Once above that threshold, your e^(ipi)+1 still rings true. It is one of many of our versions of the peacock frock.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]