3 ms·

"In New York City, the value-added score is actually not based on comparing the scores of a group of students from one year to the next, but on comparing the ‘p

"In New York City, the value-added score is actually not based on comparing the scores of a group of students from one year to the next, but on comparing the ‘predicted’ scores of a group of students to what those students actually get. The formula to generate this prediction is quite complicated, but the main piece of data it uses is the actual scores that the group of students got in the previous year." http://garyrubinstein.teachforus.org/2012/03/06/analyzing-released-nyc-value-added-data-part-iii/ http://garyrubinstein.teachforus.org/2012/03/06/analyzing-re... Some qualitative comments (from the UK) An experienced and resourceful teacher may be allocated more 'problem' students than a relatively new teacher as a matter of policy. Teaching students at the extremes of the ability range is harder than the median as the reasons for (say) severe under achievement can be very diverse (learning difficulties, home situation, undiagnosed medical issues - diabetes in my recent experience with one student - and so on) and each student may need a different approach. I have taught in a few settings over the years. The best teaching happens in my experience in settings where people work together. Performance related pay based on dodgy statistics in an atmosphere of public ridicule does not seem the best way to encourage sharing of practice and teamwork! "Good luck with that" as I believe the late Mr Jobbs used to say to competitors.

spikels 14y ago
You are correct that if students were assigned in some biased manner it could invalidate any relationship between teacher quality and subsequent student performance. That is exactly what makes this study interesting. All the students were assigned randomly! Much like in a randomized medical study this allows the establishment of a causal relationship.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  "All the students were assigned randomly! Much like in a randomized medical study this allows the establishment of a causal relationship." Two thoughts... 1) Ethics: You put some children with dyslexia or with challenging behaviour with newly trained teachers with little experience? Did their parents have any say in this? Was there an ethics process? Was there support available for newly trained teachers meeting major needs in their randomly allocated classes? Amazing. 2) Correlation does not imply a causal relationship. You need a theory. Theory in this area is not positivist, it is fuzzier. As I said before, 'good luck with that'.
  - spikels 14y ago
    1) Same students, same teachers and same support in same schools but the assignment of students and teachers to classes was randomized. Consent was obtained from principals, teachers and parents. 2) Randomized experiments can establish causation if done properly. This is how medical treatments are evaluated. The theory is simple: teachers that were more effective in the past will be more effective in the future and using objective metrics (tests, classroom observation and surveys) we can measure teacher effectiveness. This certainly positivist but more important likely repeatable. You seem like you are interested in this but I get the sense you already have strong views. Maybe you should put those aside for a moment and take a closer look at this new and interesting study you might learn something: http://www.metproject.org/reports.php http://www.metproject.org/reports.php
    - keithpeter 14y ago
      "You seem like you are interested in this but I get the sense you already have strong views." I will read the reference, however, to those of us in Europe, please remember that this methodology resembles a group of earnest steam punks analysing flies in amber with brass and ebony microscopes on an ice floe that is breaking up... I'm suggesting that we suspect positivist descriptions do not capture the important values in education. 90% of what children learn is learned outside school I suggest. I am prepared to be astounded with contrary evidence.

spikels 14y ago

You are correct that if students were assigned in some biased manner it could invalidate any relationship between teacher quality and subsequent student performance. That is exactly what makes this study interesting. All the students were assigned randomly! Much like in a randomized medical study this allows the establishment of a causal relationship.

keithpeter 14y ago
"All the students were assigned randomly! Much like in a randomized medical study this allows the establishment of a causal relationship." Two thoughts... 1) Ethics: You put some children with dyslexia or with challenging behaviour with newly trained teachers with little experience? Did their parents have any say in this? Was there an ethics process? Was there support available for newly trained teachers meeting major needs in their randomly allocated classes? Amazing. 2) Correlation does not imply a causal relationship. You need a theory. Theory in this area is not positivist, it is fuzzier. As I said before, 'good luck with that'.
- spikels 14y ago
  1) Same students, same teachers and same support in same schools but the assignment of students and teachers to classes was randomized. Consent was obtained from principals, teachers and parents. 2) Randomized experiments can establish causation if done properly. This is how medical treatments are evaluated. The theory is simple: teachers that were more effective in the past will be more effective in the future and using objective metrics (tests, classroom observation and surveys) we can measure teacher effectiveness. This certainly positivist but more important likely repeatable. You seem like you are interested in this but I get the sense you already have strong views. Maybe you should put those aside for a moment and take a closer look at this new and interesting study you might learn something: http://www.metproject.org/reports.php http://www.metproject.org/reports.php
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    "You seem like you are interested in this but I get the sense you already have strong views." I will read the reference, however, to those of us in Europe, please remember that this methodology resembles a group of earnest steam punks analysing flies in amber with brass and ebony microscopes on an ice floe that is breaking up... I'm suggesting that we suspect positivist descriptions do not capture the important values in education. 90% of what children learn is learned outside school I suggest. I am prepared to be astounded with contrary evidence.