4 ms·

And the obvious point: we're all paying these fees already, only they're spread indiscriminately across all customers, including those who pay cash. Saying a su

by gmac 14y ago

And the obvious point: we're all paying these fees already, only they're spread indiscriminately across all customers, including those who pay cash. Saying a surcharge is 'penalising' me for my payment choice isn't much less silly than saying that a retailer's pricing structure 'penalises' me for preferring a luxury brand.

potatolicious 14y ago
Right, so now we're all paying these fees and credit card users get to pay more - do you really think merchants will lower the cash price of their goods in exchange for the price hike on those paying by card?
- fpgeek 14y ago
  Do you really think merchants who go through the effort of adding a credit card surcharge are going to pass up the opportunity to undercut the cash prices of the merchants down the street who skip adding one?
- reitzensteinm 14y ago
  If there is adequate competition, the market will solve this. If there is not, then merchants don't need an ostensible reason to screw you. They'll just do it.
adrr 14y ago
There's cost involved with handling cash and checks not to mention the risk costs. Checks can bounce and have to be transported to a bank. Cash can be stolen and requires secure transportation to a bank. Cost of doing business should be factored in the price. We are moving towards a pricing structure where the advertised price is not the price you pay. Just look at your cell phone bill.
- geuis 14y ago
  My info is limited to San Francisco, but here many smaller businesses prefer cash. The processing fees are too high to make accepting cards profitable. I see this policy mainly in smaller restaurants, coffee shops, bars, corner butcher shop, etc.
  - yuhong 14y ago
    It depends on the amount of cash, I think.
- gmac 14y ago
  We are moving towards a pricing structure where the advertised price is not the price you pay. I'm from the UK, but my limited experience in the US says: that ship has well and truly sailed. I'm never quite able to get used to sales tax added at the checkout, and substantial and essentially-mandatory tipping across many services. In Europe you basically always pay the advertised price in a shop or pub, and you can do so at a push in a bar/cafe/restaurant. (In France, I believe even a service charge is included in restaurant menu prices).
  - saurik 14y ago
    Is VAT (which, from the standpoint of a consumer purchasing something at retail, acts as a "very large sales tax") not added at checkout? Is it normally listed on the sticker prices throughout the store?
    - gst 14y ago
      In most (all?) European countries VAT is included in the sticker prices. If the price on the sticker says €5 you also pay exactly €5 for it.
    - kryptiskt 14y ago
      > Is it normally listed on the sticker prices throughout the store? Unless it is a catalog with products strictly aimed at businesses, VAT is always included.
    - rahim_nathwani 14y ago
      Yes. In the UK, sticker prices or advertisements aimed at consumers must include VAT where applicable. This is not so if the sticker/ad/whatever is aimed _solely_ at businesses (many of whom can claim back the VAT). Further info: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/basics.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/basics.htm Service charges are a different matter. Some restaurants advertise a mandatory service charge (e.g. 15%) on all bills, or for parties of x (e.g. 6) or more people. Although it may seem like increasing prices by the amount of the mandatory service charge would make life easier for everyone, services charges (even mandatory ones) are treated differently for tax purposes: if they are distributed to employees, they are not subject to VAT (revenue tax) or Corporation Tax (profits tax). They are, however, subject to payroll taxes (PAYE Income Tax and NIC): http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/payroll/special-pay/tips.htm#1 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/payroll/special-pay/tips.htm#1
libria 14y ago
Some locales refuse plastic below a certain threshold. I may prefer a POS surcharge to hunting around for an ATM and paying one there anyway.
- ollysb 14y ago
  Just curious, do you have to pay a fee to use any ATM?
  - libria 14y ago
    Almost always, IME. The bank may even charge a service fee (to their own customers) on top of whatever fee the guest ATM charges. This probably comes out to no more than a few dollars, but it does make the option to pay +4% at POS more compelling for small purchases.
gst 14y ago
Actually if you pay with credit card you often don't have to pay the full fees, as with many credit cards a part of those fees is given back to you as reward points or cashback. So customers paying cash are essentially paying a higher percentage of those credit card fees, than customers paying with credit cards.

by gmac 14y ago

potatolicious 14y ago

Right, so now we're all paying these fees and credit card users get to pay more - do you really think merchants will lower the cash price of their goods in exchange for the price hike on those paying by card?

fpgeek 14y ago
Do you really think merchants who go through the effort of adding a credit card surcharge are going to pass up the opportunity to undercut the cash prices of the merchants down the street who skip adding one?
reitzensteinm 14y ago
If there is adequate competition, the market will solve this. If there is not, then merchants don't need an ostensible reason to screw you. They'll just do it.

adrr 14y ago

There's cost involved with handling cash and checks not to mention the risk costs. Checks can bounce and have to be transported to a bank. Cash can be stolen and requires secure transportation to a bank. Cost of doing business should be factored in the price. We are moving towards a pricing structure where the advertised price is not the price you pay. Just look at your cell phone bill.

geuis 14y ago
My info is limited to San Francisco, but here many smaller businesses prefer cash. The processing fees are too high to make accepting cards profitable. I see this policy mainly in smaller restaurants, coffee shops, bars, corner butcher shop, etc.
- yuhong 14y ago
  It depends on the amount of cash, I think.
gmac 14y ago
We are moving towards a pricing structure where the advertised price is not the price you pay. I'm from the UK, but my limited experience in the US says: that ship has well and truly sailed. I'm never quite able to get used to sales tax added at the checkout, and substantial and essentially-mandatory tipping across many services. In Europe you basically always pay the advertised price in a shop or pub, and you can do so at a push in a bar/cafe/restaurant. (In France, I believe even a service charge is included in restaurant menu prices).
- saurik 14y ago
  Is VAT (which, from the standpoint of a consumer purchasing something at retail, acts as a "very large sales tax") not added at checkout? Is it normally listed on the sticker prices throughout the store?
  - gst 14y ago
    In most (all?) European countries VAT is included in the sticker prices. If the price on the sticker says €5 you also pay exactly €5 for it.
  - kryptiskt 14y ago
    > Is it normally listed on the sticker prices throughout the store? Unless it is a catalog with products strictly aimed at businesses, VAT is always included.
  - rahim_nathwani 14y ago
    Yes. In the UK, sticker prices or advertisements aimed at consumers must include VAT where applicable. This is not so if the sticker/ad/whatever is aimed _solely_ at businesses (many of whom can claim back the VAT). Further info: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/basics.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/basics.htm Service charges are a different matter. Some restaurants advertise a mandatory service charge (e.g. 15%) on all bills, or for parties of x (e.g. 6) or more people. Although it may seem like increasing prices by the amount of the mandatory service charge would make life easier for everyone, services charges (even mandatory ones) are treated differently for tax purposes: if they are distributed to employees, they are not subject to VAT (revenue tax) or Corporation Tax (profits tax). They are, however, subject to payroll taxes (PAYE Income Tax and NIC): http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/payroll/special-pay/tips.htm#1 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/payroll/special-pay/tips.htm#1

libria 14y ago

Some locales refuse plastic below a certain threshold. I may prefer a POS surcharge to hunting around for an ATM and paying one there anyway.

ollysb 14y ago
Just curious, do you have to pay a fee to use any ATM?
- libria 14y ago
  Almost always, IME. The bank may even charge a service fee (to their own customers) on top of whatever fee the guest ATM charges. This probably comes out to no more than a few dollars, but it does make the option to pay +4% at POS more compelling for small purchases.

gst 14y ago

Actually if you pay with credit card you often don't have to pay the full fees, as with many credit cards a part of those fees is given back to you as reward points or cashback. So customers paying cash are essentially paying a higher percentage of those credit card fees, than customers paying with credit cards.