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Paris (France). If I could snap my fingers and change one thing about how Americans communicate, it would surely be to stop them saying Paris, France. Or London

Paris (France). If I could snap my fingers and change one thing about how Americans communicate, it would surely be to stop them saying Paris, France. Or London, England. Or Moscow, Russia. Or ... many similar examples. Please abandon this whole meme. Normal people know where the great cities of the world are.

joshuaheard 14y ago
You mean like Paris, Texas; Moscow, Idaho; and, London, Connecticut?
- billforsternz 14y ago
  There is no need to add "France" to disambiguate Paris because Paris is an iconic location familiar to every educated person in the world. If you want to identify an obscure town in Texas that shares the same name, clearly you do need to add "Texas" to disambiguate.
  - astrobe_ 14y ago
    I believe it's more about habits than pedantry. The "new world" has tons of duplicate city names. Aside from those already quoted, there are also Vancouver, BC and Vancouver, Washington cities that are only separated by 300 miles, and the famous and ubiquitous Springfield. In Germany and France, it seems that when two cities share the same name, the name of the nearest river is often used for disambiguation (e.g. Romilly-sur-Seine/Romilly-sur-Andelle, Frankfurt am Main/Frankfurt an der Oder). Americans seem to prefer state names, and it seems they interpolated this habit on the international level.
    - billforsternz 14y ago
      I agree that it's a habit and absolutely not pedantry. I am arguing that when applied unnecessarily (Paris, France when it's an international news story, an action movie set in glamorous European locations, or a set of charming early 20th century Paris cityscapes) it's an unthinking habit that shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of the audience and reflects a media "dumbing down" trend. I also suspect you are right about the origin of this habit being disambiguation using state names, and extension of that to the international level.
      - philwelch 14y ago
        Stop trolling, bro.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      England too: "Newcastle upon Tyne", "Stoke on Trent". I believe you're arguing with a particularly useless troll anyway.
      - billforsternz 14y ago
        That would be much more relevant if the name of Paris was Paris sur Seine. It's not. Your accusation that I am useless and a troll is uncharitable and unfounded. This is particularly disappointing given that it seems that (judging from your other comments) you are normally an intelligent and thoughtful commentator.
        philwelch 14y ago
        I see nothing about this particular hobbyhorse of yours that is relevant or useful. The assumption that you were trolling was the charitable one. This is a very petty issue to start a thread-derailing argument about.
        billforsternz 14y ago
        Thank you for at least providing me with your reasoning this time. I will respectfully disagree with you. It's hardly a hobbyhorse, I am not the chairman of the "Stop Paris, France" society. It's the 8,345,235th most important thing in my life. I happen to think it's an interesting thing, it's certainly something that amuses countless non-American people. Several other people commented in a civil way, not all of them disagreed with me, maybe they thought it was interesting too. Perhaps I am imagining it, but just about every thread on Hacker News gets derailed to a certain extent, the side-issues and byways that get explored are one of the things that give Hacker News its charm. Incidentally, as a non-American who happens to love America and things American I have found myself in the past trying to defend the habit in conversation with others; "Well, it makes sense, you see there is a Paris in Texas too". Eventually I realised the cause was hopeless and gave up, "No, you're right it's just a crazy habit they have". Anyway, enough, as you say it's a tiny thing. I will move on.
Mvandenbergh 14y ago
What about Boston? That's an example of the newer city being more important, globally speaking than the original. Or what about Cambridge - that one's especially unclear because it can refer to two cities with great universities.
- notahacker 14y ago
  It work both ways: you probably wouldn't need to say "Boston, USA" to save people from making the assumption you meant the small town in Lincolnshire and not the New England capital, or "Melbourne, Australia" to identify that you meant the cultural capital of Australia and not a small market town in Derbyshire. Cambridge is more or less the only exception when it comes to Anglophone cities with the same name and similar levels of international fame
knowtheory 14y ago
Yeah, if there's any such thing as a "Normal" person. When discussing the salience of possible referents context is the major determinant, especially with things like geographical proximity to one of a possible set of similarly named cities. If someone in Columbus, Ohio (as opposed to Georgia) is discussing travelling to London, there's a non-trivial possibility that they were talking about London, Ohio, rather than London, England. Traveling Southwestern Ontario provides similar circumstance, given that the British decided to name the entire province after England. London (Ontario) sits at the fork of the Thames River, an hours drive from Stratford, which likewise rests on the Avon. So sure, maybe if you live in Europe, "normal" people always use "London" to refer to the UK, but "normal" people in Toronto, probably mean the city in Ontario when they use the name. tl;dr: you're being a cultural imperialist.
- billforsternz 14y ago
  I regret using the word "normal". However I am not being a cultural imperialist. Sure, disambiguate where it makes sense. It would make sense for people in Ontario to disambiguate London often. Paris, not so much. There is absolutely no need for disambiguation in an article meant for a wide audience and featuring iconic cityscapes complete with the Eiffel tower etc! The "Paris, France" meme is endemic in North American media but completely absent in the rest of the English speaking world.
bane 14y ago
Paris https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+KY&hl=en&sll=38.003385,-79.420925&sspn=7.139614,14.27124&oq=paris&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Bourbon,+Kentucky&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+KY&hl=en&sll=3... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=38.209799,-84.252987&sspn=0.111278,0.222988&oq=Paris&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Lamar,+Texas&z=12 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=3... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+AR&hl=en&sll=33.660939,-95.555513&sspn=0.23575,0.445976&oq=Paris&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Logan,+Arkansas&z=14 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+AR&hl=en&sll=3... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=35.292032,-93.729917&sspn=0.057797,0.111494&oq=Paris,+tx&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Lamar,+Texas&z=12 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=3... London https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+ON,+Canada&hl=en&sll=33.660939,-95.555513&sspn=0.23575,0.445976&oq=london&t=h&hnear=London,+Middlesex+County,+Ontario,+Canada&z=11&iwloc=A https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+ON,+Canada&hl=en&... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+OH&hl=en&sll=42.98695,-81.243177&sspn=0.414384,0.891953&oq=London&t=h&hnear=London,+Madison,+Ohio&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+OH&hl=en&sll=... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+KY&hl=en&sll=39.886449,-83.448253&sspn=0.108668,0.222988&oq=London&t=h&hnear=London,+Laurel,+Kentucky&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+KY&hl=en&sll=... Moscow https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+ID&hl=en&sll=42.86513,-71.373927&sspn=0.207603,0.445976&oq=moscow&t=h&hnear=Moscow,+Latah,+Idaho&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+ID&hl=en&sll=... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+PA&hl=en&sll=46.732387,-117.000165&sspn=0.097068,0.222988&oq=Moscow&t=h&hnear=Moscow,+Lackawanna,+Pennsylvania&z=14 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+PA&hl=en&sll=... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+OH&hl=en&sll=41.33675,-75.518519&sspn=0.053167,0.111494&oq=Moscow&t=h&hnear=Moscow,+Clermont,+Ohio&z=15 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+OH&hl=en&sll=...
- billforsternz 14y ago
  I don't understand your point. I don't doubt for a minute there is a list of places as long as your arm also named Paris (or London, or Berlin or whatever). Consider the following scenario, you are shooting an action movie and you have a scene setting shot, a panoramic Paris flyover, complete with the Arc de Triomphe, the Eiffel tower etc. etc. Do you think adding a "Paris, France" annotation shows respect for the intelligence of your audience ? Or not ?

joshuaheard 14y ago

You mean like Paris, Texas; Moscow, Idaho; and, London, Connecticut?

billforsternz 14y ago
There is no need to add "France" to disambiguate Paris because Paris is an iconic location familiar to every educated person in the world. If you want to identify an obscure town in Texas that shares the same name, clearly you do need to add "Texas" to disambiguate.
- astrobe_ 14y ago
  I believe it's more about habits than pedantry. The "new world" has tons of duplicate city names. Aside from those already quoted, there are also Vancouver, BC and Vancouver, Washington cities that are only separated by 300 miles, and the famous and ubiquitous Springfield. In Germany and France, it seems that when two cities share the same name, the name of the nearest river is often used for disambiguation (e.g. Romilly-sur-Seine/Romilly-sur-Andelle, Frankfurt am Main/Frankfurt an der Oder). Americans seem to prefer state names, and it seems they interpolated this habit on the international level.
  - billforsternz 14y ago
    I agree that it's a habit and absolutely not pedantry. I am arguing that when applied unnecessarily (Paris, France when it's an international news story, an action movie set in glamorous European locations, or a set of charming early 20th century Paris cityscapes) it's an unthinking habit that shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of the audience and reflects a media "dumbing down" trend. I also suspect you are right about the origin of this habit being disambiguation using state names, and extension of that to the international level.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      Stop trolling, bro.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    England too: "Newcastle upon Tyne", "Stoke on Trent". I believe you're arguing with a particularly useless troll anyway.
    - billforsternz 14y ago
      That would be much more relevant if the name of Paris was Paris sur Seine. It's not. Your accusation that I am useless and a troll is uncharitable and unfounded. This is particularly disappointing given that it seems that (judging from your other comments) you are normally an intelligent and thoughtful commentator.
      - philwelch 14y ago
        I see nothing about this particular hobbyhorse of yours that is relevant or useful. The assumption that you were trolling was the charitable one. This is a very petty issue to start a thread-derailing argument about.
        billforsternz 14y ago
        Thank you for at least providing me with your reasoning this time. I will respectfully disagree with you. It's hardly a hobbyhorse, I am not the chairman of the "Stop Paris, France" society. It's the 8,345,235th most important thing in my life. I happen to think it's an interesting thing, it's certainly something that amuses countless non-American people. Several other people commented in a civil way, not all of them disagreed with me, maybe they thought it was interesting too. Perhaps I am imagining it, but just about every thread on Hacker News gets derailed to a certain extent, the side-issues and byways that get explored are one of the things that give Hacker News its charm. Incidentally, as a non-American who happens to love America and things American I have found myself in the past trying to defend the habit in conversation with others; "Well, it makes sense, you see there is a Paris in Texas too". Eventually I realised the cause was hopeless and gave up, "No, you're right it's just a crazy habit they have". Anyway, enough, as you say it's a tiny thing. I will move on.

Mvandenbergh 14y ago

What about Boston? That's an example of the newer city being more important, globally speaking than the original. Or what about Cambridge - that one's especially unclear because it can refer to two cities with great universities.

notahacker 14y ago
It work both ways: you probably wouldn't need to say "Boston, USA" to save people from making the assumption you meant the small town in Lincolnshire and not the New England capital, or "Melbourne, Australia" to identify that you meant the cultural capital of Australia and not a small market town in Derbyshire. Cambridge is more or less the only exception when it comes to Anglophone cities with the same name and similar levels of international fame

knowtheory 14y ago

Yeah, if there's any such thing as a "Normal" person. When discussing the salience of possible referents context is the major determinant, especially with things like geographical proximity to one of a possible set of similarly named cities. If someone in Columbus, Ohio (as opposed to Georgia) is discussing travelling to London, there's a non-trivial possibility that they were talking about London, Ohio, rather than London, England. Traveling Southwestern Ontario provides similar circumstance, given that the British decided to name the entire province after England. London (Ontario) sits at the fork of the Thames River, an hours drive from Stratford, which likewise rests on the Avon. So sure, maybe if you live in Europe, "normal" people always use "London" to refer to the UK, but "normal" people in Toronto, probably mean the city in Ontario when they use the name. tl;dr: you're being a cultural imperialist.

billforsternz 14y ago
I regret using the word "normal". However I am not being a cultural imperialist. Sure, disambiguate where it makes sense. It would make sense for people in Ontario to disambiguate London often. Paris, not so much. There is absolutely no need for disambiguation in an article meant for a wide audience and featuring iconic cityscapes complete with the Eiffel tower etc! The "Paris, France" meme is endemic in North American media but completely absent in the rest of the English speaking world.

bane 14y ago

Paris https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+KY&hl=en&sll=38.003385,-79.420925&sspn=7.139614,14.27124&oq=paris&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Bourbon,+Kentucky&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+KY&hl=en&sll=3... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=38.209799,-84.252987&sspn=0.111278,0.222988&oq=Paris&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Lamar,+Texas&z=12 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=3... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+AR&hl=en&sll=33.660939,-95.555513&sspn=0.23575,0.445976&oq=Paris&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Logan,+Arkansas&z=14 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+AR&hl=en&sll=3... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=35.292032,-93.729917&sspn=0.057797,0.111494&oq=Paris,+tx&t=h&hnear=Paris,+Lamar,+Texas&z=12 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Paris,+TX&hl=en&sll=3... London https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+ON,+Canada&hl=en&sll=33.660939,-95.555513&sspn=0.23575,0.445976&oq=london&t=h&hnear=London,+Middlesex+County,+Ontario,+Canada&z=11&iwloc=A https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+ON,+Canada&hl=en&... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+OH&hl=en&sll=42.98695,-81.243177&sspn=0.414384,0.891953&oq=London&t=h&hnear=London,+Madison,+Ohio&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+OH&hl=en&sll=... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+KY&hl=en&sll=39.886449,-83.448253&sspn=0.108668,0.222988&oq=London&t=h&hnear=London,+Laurel,+Kentucky&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=London,+KY&hl=en&sll=... Moscow https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+ID&hl=en&sll=42.86513,-71.373927&sspn=0.207603,0.445976&oq=moscow&t=h&hnear=Moscow,+Latah,+Idaho&z=13 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+ID&hl=en&sll=... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+PA&hl=en&sll=46.732387,-117.000165&sspn=0.097068,0.222988&oq=Moscow&t=h&hnear=Moscow,+Lackawanna,+Pennsylvania&z=14 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+PA&hl=en&sll=... https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+OH&hl=en&sll=41.33675,-75.518519&sspn=0.053167,0.111494&oq=Moscow&t=h&hnear=Moscow,+Clermont,+Ohio&z=15 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Moscow,+OH&hl=en&sll=...

billforsternz 14y ago
I don't understand your point. I don't doubt for a minute there is a list of places as long as your arm also named Paris (or London, or Berlin or whatever). Consider the following scenario, you are shooting an action movie and you have a scene setting shot, a panoramic Paris flyover, complete with the Arc de Triomphe, the Eiffel tower etc. etc. Do you think adding a "Paris, France" annotation shows respect for the intelligence of your audience ? Or not ?