6 ms·

This is the magic quote: "Now, educators in Wisconsin are offering a possible solution by decoupling the learning part of education from student assessment and

by blahedo 14y ago

This is the magic quote: "Now, educators in Wisconsin are offering a possible solution by decoupling the learning part of education from student assessment and degree-granting." Speaking as an educator (I teach undergrad-level CS) I would love to be able to not have to give high-stakes assessments: I'd still assign projects and give exams to be able to give students feedback and help both of us understand where they're at, but the whole process would be so much less stressful (on both sides) if the assessment-for-credit came from someone else somewhere else. (Interestingly, I also am very interested in writing and working out how to fairly score the for-credit assessments; I just don't want them to be part of my class.) That said, there's a lot that's a little scary about initiatives like this (from a job security standpoint), but I do think that something along these lines is both inevitable and, ultimately, the right direction to go.

dllthomas 14y ago
Yeah, our current conflation of education and credentialing has some issues (though it's by no means new, on human-lifespan timescales). It's interesting to see it breaking down.
mattkopecki 14y ago
Based on your experience, would it be difficult to decouple the assessment of an instructor from the test results of his/her students? If the assessment of a student's learning comes from somewhere else, what other mechanisms could we use to evaluate the effectiveness and (or) competence of their instructors?
- joshAg 14y ago
  I saw a suggestion elsewhere on hn that moving to a single, cumulative exam after 4 years can be very effective because it's almost impossible to pass by just cramming the week before and it allows students and professors to focus on learning for most of the students' time in undergrad instead of on passing a test or teaching to a test.
  - dvdhsu 14y ago
    This is similar to how the system at Oxford works (I think this is how the rest of the British universities do it as well.). Your degree class (essentially your GPA) is solely based on tests you take at the end of every year of your degree (three for a BA, four for a MComp). There are practicals (lab sessions) and tutorials (conversations with tutors about problem sets), but those don't affect your degree class, unless you do terribly. With all the testing in American universities, the British (?) system is quite refreshing.
    - setrofim_ 14y ago
      I believe this is the case for most British universities, most "traditional" universities anyway (not sure about former polytechnics, etc). Sometimes there is also coursework that contributes to your final degree (my CS course had a group project in the second year and an a dissertation based on an individual project in the final year), but all the exams take place at the end of the year. My uni also weighted the exams so that the final year contributed much more to the final "grade" than the first year, effectively putting most of the pressure on the final term of the last year.
- blahedo 14y ago
  > would it be difficult to decouple the assessment of an instructor from the test results of his/her students? In fact, I think it would be critical to do so. Students may perform well on the exam for any number of reasons other than having a good teacher, and they may perform poorly for reasons other than having a bad teacher. > If the assessment of a student's learning comes from somewhere else, what other mechanisms could we use to evaluate the effectiveness and (or) competence of their instructors? Well, it's not like we can use exam scores now to evaluate the college-level teachers. The sad truth is that to a large extent, most people who teach at the college level are evaluated primarily on things other than teaching. I know I'm a pretty good teacher not because of good test scores, or good evaluations, but because students come back to me months or years later and talk about things they learned in my class(es) that set them up well to find their way through a later class or a job. But that kind of feedback is very difficult to quantify.
gz5 14y ago
Any concern that the student then focuses on the assessment alone, less interested and less engaged in activities/classes/work that would otherwise teach her how to learn, how to work in a team, etc? Does this focus students on an outcome that is arguably less important than the process to get there?
- ibejoeb 14y ago
  I'd say there's already a sizable contingent that prioritizes scores over pure learning.
- bphogan 14y ago
  It sure does. Kinda happens in public schools now - teachers teach to the test because they need the students to pass the standardized tests.
leoc 14y ago
> This is the magic quote: "Now, educators in Wisconsin are offering a possible solution by decoupling the learning part of education from student assessment and degree-granting." The University of London has offered this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_degree since 1858.

by blahedo 14y ago

dllthomas 14y ago

Yeah, our current conflation of education and credentialing has some issues (though it's by no means new, on human-lifespan timescales). It's interesting to see it breaking down.

mattkopecki 14y ago

Based on your experience, would it be difficult to decouple the assessment of an instructor from the test results of his/her students? If the assessment of a student's learning comes from somewhere else, what other mechanisms could we use to evaluate the effectiveness and (or) competence of their instructors?

joshAg 14y ago
I saw a suggestion elsewhere on hn that moving to a single, cumulative exam after 4 years can be very effective because it's almost impossible to pass by just cramming the week before and it allows students and professors to focus on learning for most of the students' time in undergrad instead of on passing a test or teaching to a test.
- dvdhsu 14y ago
  This is similar to how the system at Oxford works (I think this is how the rest of the British universities do it as well.). Your degree class (essentially your GPA) is solely based on tests you take at the end of every year of your degree (three for a BA, four for a MComp). There are practicals (lab sessions) and tutorials (conversations with tutors about problem sets), but those don't affect your degree class, unless you do terribly. With all the testing in American universities, the British (?) system is quite refreshing.
  - setrofim_ 14y ago
    I believe this is the case for most British universities, most "traditional" universities anyway (not sure about former polytechnics, etc). Sometimes there is also coursework that contributes to your final degree (my CS course had a group project in the second year and an a dissertation based on an individual project in the final year), but all the exams take place at the end of the year. My uni also weighted the exams so that the final year contributed much more to the final "grade" than the first year, effectively putting most of the pressure on the final term of the last year.
blahedo 14y ago
> would it be difficult to decouple the assessment of an instructor from the test results of his/her students? In fact, I think it would be critical to do so. Students may perform well on the exam for any number of reasons other than having a good teacher, and they may perform poorly for reasons other than having a bad teacher. > If the assessment of a student's learning comes from somewhere else, what other mechanisms could we use to evaluate the effectiveness and (or) competence of their instructors? Well, it's not like we can use exam scores now to evaluate the college-level teachers. The sad truth is that to a large extent, most people who teach at the college level are evaluated primarily on things other than teaching. I know I'm a pretty good teacher not because of good test scores, or good evaluations, but because students come back to me months or years later and talk about things they learned in my class(es) that set them up well to find their way through a later class or a job. But that kind of feedback is very difficult to quantify.

gz5 14y ago

Any concern that the student then focuses on the assessment alone, less interested and less engaged in activities/classes/work that would otherwise teach her how to learn, how to work in a team, etc? Does this focus students on an outcome that is arguably less important than the process to get there?

ibejoeb 14y ago
I'd say there's already a sizable contingent that prioritizes scores over pure learning.
bphogan 14y ago
It sure does. Kinda happens in public schools now - teachers teach to the test because they need the students to pass the standardized tests.

leoc 14y ago

> This is the magic quote: "Now, educators in Wisconsin are offering a possible solution by decoupling the learning part of education from student assessment and degree-granting." The University of London has offered this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_degree since 1858.