5 ms·

Seconded (and it's nice to see 'grellas back on the board). I hope it's not discourteous to emphasize one of George's points as a tl;dr: > "don't leave yourse

by dctoedt 14y ago

Seconded (and it's nice to see 'grellas back on the board). I hope it's not discourteous to emphasize one of George's points as a tl;dr: > "don't leave yourself in situations where you can be second-guessed" THAT'S THE KEY TAKEAWAY -- HERE ARE TWO RULES OF THUMB: (1) Never make comments of an even-remotely sexual nature, joking or otherwise, to anyone, at any time. In particular, don't so much as hint that a co-worker should go out with you. You also want to be extremely careful about complimenting anyone's appearance. Here's why: * If there ever is a lawsuit, you will be asked, under oath, whether you ever made such comments. * Moreover, people who work with you are likely to be asked, also under oath, whether they ever heard you make such comments. * If the answer is yes, you did make such comments, then the jurors will be that much more likely to believe your accuser. Plaintiffs' lawyers know this and will take advantage of it every time. * If you deny ever having made such comments, but other people said you did, then your credibility will take a serious and possibly-fatal hit --- not a happy event in a he-said / she-said situation. (2) To the greatest extent possible, avoid being alone with anyone, of either sex and of any age, who might conceivably bring a sexual-harassment charge against you --- you want always to have a neutral witness who could testify in your favor.

jseliger 14y ago
>THAT'S THE KEY TAKEAWAY -- HERE ARE TWO RULES OF THUMB: >(1) Never make comments of an even-remotely sexual nature, joking or otherwise, to anyone, at any time. So much of humor and personality are bound up in sexuality that this is tantamount to saying, for many people, "Leave your personality at the door." I also worry that this kind of principle, and especially your second principle, will lead to founders doing the easy thing and simply not hiring women. Notice that I'm not arguing in favor of sexual harassment or not hiring women. For an alternate cultural perspective, read Elaine Sciolino's La Seduction: How the French Play the Game of Life, which has a section on the workplace and love; in it she says this: The game of the sexes also extends deep into the workplace. In the United States, the mildest playfulness during business hours and in a business setting is forbidden; in France, it is encouraged. In American corporations, men are told routinely that they cross the line when they compliment a female employee on the color of her dress or the style of her hair. In France, flirtation is part of the job. (I wrote more about the book here: https://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/la-seduction-how-the-french-play-the-game-of-life-elaine-sciolino/ https://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/la-seduction-how-t...). It might be that we have a large-scale cultural problem that has bled into legal problems.
- jessaustin 14y ago
  ...will lead to founders doing the easy thing and simply not hiring women. Those who encourage baseless sexual harassment claims (and baseless lawsuits of all sorts) couldn't care less about the hiring of women. Those who do care about the hiring of women ought to consider making this issue a priority.
- henrikschroder 14y ago
  > will lead to founders doing the easy thing and simply not hiring women. Plot twist: In this specific case, he's being accused by another man.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
philmcc 14y ago
> (2) To the greatest extent possible, avoid being alone with anyone, of either sex and of any age, who might conceivably bring a sexual-harassment charge against you Wait. Don't ever be alone with anyone? Rough times.
- dctoedt 14y ago
  If you're straight and the other person is the same sex and also straight, you're OK being alone together. If you're gay and with a person of the opposite sex, you're OK being alone together. Anything else is risky.
  - incision 14y ago
    Anecdotally, I've found myself in situations which would easily qualify as sexual harassment more than once. Each situation would have been "OK" by your definitions, on the surface. Trying to judge risk in terms of gender or apparent orientation seems a bit silly to me.
  - philmcc 14y ago
    Seems like a lot of guess work. I fear I'd be doing something wrong just by trying to figure out whether or not the other person was gay. So a straight guy can say to another straight guy "Hey man you have a nice ass?" without legal repercussions? One more reason to try to work from home I guess.
  - diziet 14y ago
    Isn't this being a bit too absurd?
incision 14y ago
Something I honestly don't grok... These risks/warnings could apply to just about anything. A person could allege all manner of offensive, suggestive or coercive things, but none seem quite as effective as sexual harassment. Am I wrong in the impression that allegations of sexual harassment specifically seem to be automatically taken quite seriously? Over the course of my career, I've seen people accused of every kind of discrimination imaginable, intimidation, extortion, death threats and more, but nothing gets traction like sexual harassment. What's the deal?
- mahyarm 14y ago
  It's probably because this law was established by the efforts of second wave feminism (1960s-1980s). Those other ones are far older and more fundamental social behavior laws that aren't enforced nearly as much. I'm hypothesizing that second wave feminism is an issue dear to the current generation of judges and prosecutors, since they were young then, which is why it gains far more traction in the American court of law. Even reality TV Judge Judy references second wave feminism in some of her judgments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism
tptacek 14y ago
This is the only HR-related legal action I have ever seen succeed against a company I've worked at. It is so difficult to defend these things that professionally-run companies apparently just settle immediately. I think there's a reason both Grellas and D.C. are warning you all so strenuously about this problem.

by dctoedt 14y ago

jseliger 14y ago

>THAT'S THE KEY TAKEAWAY -- HERE ARE TWO RULES OF THUMB: >(1) Never make comments of an even-remotely sexual nature, joking or otherwise, to anyone, at any time. So much of humor and personality are bound up in sexuality that this is tantamount to saying, for many people, "Leave your personality at the door." I also worry that this kind of principle, and especially your second principle, will lead to founders doing the easy thing and simply not hiring women. Notice that I'm not arguing in favor of sexual harassment or not hiring women. For an alternate cultural perspective, read Elaine Sciolino's La Seduction: How the French Play the Game of Life, which has a section on the workplace and love; in it she says this: The game of the sexes also extends deep into the workplace. In the United States, the mildest playfulness during business hours and in a business setting is forbidden; in France, it is encouraged. In American corporations, men are told routinely that they cross the line when they compliment a female employee on the color of her dress or the style of her hair. In France, flirtation is part of the job. (I wrote more about the book here: https://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/la-seduction-how-the-french-play-the-game-of-life-elaine-sciolino/ https://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/la-seduction-how-t...). It might be that we have a large-scale cultural problem that has bled into legal problems.

jessaustin 14y ago
...will lead to founders doing the easy thing and simply not hiring women. Those who encourage baseless sexual harassment claims (and baseless lawsuits of all sorts) couldn't care less about the hiring of women. Those who do care about the hiring of women ought to consider making this issue a priority.
henrikschroder 14y ago
> will lead to founders doing the easy thing and simply not hiring women. Plot twist: In this specific case, he's being accused by another man.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

philmcc 14y ago

> (2) To the greatest extent possible, avoid being alone with anyone, of either sex and of any age, who might conceivably bring a sexual-harassment charge against you Wait. Don't ever be alone with anyone? Rough times.

dctoedt 14y ago
If you're straight and the other person is the same sex and also straight, you're OK being alone together. If you're gay and with a person of the opposite sex, you're OK being alone together. Anything else is risky.
- incision 14y ago
  Anecdotally, I've found myself in situations which would easily qualify as sexual harassment more than once. Each situation would have been "OK" by your definitions, on the surface. Trying to judge risk in terms of gender or apparent orientation seems a bit silly to me.
- philmcc 14y ago
  Seems like a lot of guess work. I fear I'd be doing something wrong just by trying to figure out whether or not the other person was gay. So a straight guy can say to another straight guy "Hey man you have a nice ass?" without legal repercussions? One more reason to try to work from home I guess.
- diziet 14y ago
  Isn't this being a bit too absurd?

incision 14y ago

Something I honestly don't grok... These risks/warnings could apply to just about anything. A person could allege all manner of offensive, suggestive or coercive things, but none seem quite as effective as sexual harassment. Am I wrong in the impression that allegations of sexual harassment specifically seem to be automatically taken quite seriously? Over the course of my career, I've seen people accused of every kind of discrimination imaginable, intimidation, extortion, death threats and more, but nothing gets traction like sexual harassment. What's the deal?

mahyarm 14y ago
It's probably because this law was established by the efforts of second wave feminism (1960s-1980s). Those other ones are far older and more fundamental social behavior laws that aren't enforced nearly as much. I'm hypothesizing that second wave feminism is an issue dear to the current generation of judges and prosecutors, since they were young then, which is why it gains far more traction in the American court of law. Even reality TV Judge Judy references second wave feminism in some of her judgments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism

tptacek 14y ago

This is the only HR-related legal action I have ever seen succeed against a company I've worked at. It is so difficult to defend these things that professionally-run companies apparently just settle immediately. I think there's a reason both Grellas and D.C. are warning you all so strenuously about this problem.