6 ms·

"guaranteed medical care" - of what quality, with what results? And the value of medical care being covered is that it doesn't destroy the rest of your life. It

by loceng 14y ago

"guaranteed medical care" - of what quality, with what results? And the value of medical care being covered is that it doesn't destroy the rest of your life. It's actually kind of pointless to help someone just get to the point of surviving, and then leave them to fend for themself.

tptacek 14y ago
I just don't know how to respond to the idea that there's minimal value in removing infected bone fragments from a child's femur, and so I'm not going to pretend that there's a useful discussion you and I can have about this.
- loceng 14y ago
  Not the situation I was insinuating. That child will not be left on their own, presumably they have a family who will care for them and help them get past it. In a situation where the person is just left to basic care, and has no other future care options is what I was referring to. I should have been more clear.
philwelch 14y ago
To me, it's plainly obvious that people in those other countries need our help more than people in the United States. What other concern is there? "I'd like to help people in MY country" is just a vaguely nationalistic bigotry.
- tinco 14y ago
  It is not so obvious. There's a lot of suffering going on in your country too. Charity comes from the heart, and where you should direct your love is your own choice. If you feel the people in your country are closer to you, there's no shame in helping them before others. We are human after all.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    > If you feel the people in your country are closer to you That's the nationalistic bigotry I was talking about. That's like saying if there was a charity that only helped white people, maybe I should contribute to that because I feel that people of European descent are "closer to me".
    - tinco 14y ago
      It is not bigotry, you are misinformed. Black people contributing to http://blackcharities.net/ http://blackcharities.net/ are not bigots, they merely support those whose fate they identify with.
      - philwelch 14y ago
        Sure, people are more likely to help those they identify with. That means they're more likely to ignore the plight of people they don't identify with. And that is bigotry. And criticizing a charity for not enabling that is also bigotry.
    - loceng 14y ago
      If you did that it could mean you're racist, the act of donating to such a cause doesn't make the act itself bigotry though IMHO. The intent behind a charity is what would be a determining factor for me - not in the end who it ends up helping, though that likely plays a role in most people's decisions.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Nobody is saying you shouldn't give to local people in need. There are clearly many deserving outlets for charity.
    - tinco 14y ago
      Someone is saying giving to local people is nationalist and bigotry, I am merely refuting that.
- loceng 14y ago
  There are millions and millions of people, tens of millions in North America, that aren't taken care of well or properly. Fixing people when they're bad enough to absolutely need help or they'll die, otherwise letting them suffer, isn't a great attitude to have; Not saying that is your attitude, though it's what our culture currently has in place.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    Except it isn't. That's the whole problem--people have natural ingroup/outgroup biases where the suffering and death of people in groups they identify with is given more weight. Wars are criticized, not on the basis of the hundreds or thousands of foreign civilian casualties, but on the basis of thousands of military casualties suffered by our own side. National law is reevaluated on the basis of American children dying in a shooting, but Middle Eastern children dying in a drone strike go ignored. People would rather donate money to save an American from financial hardship than to save a Haitian from death or lifelong crippling, implicitly leaving the Haitian to suffer and die. To some extent this is just human nature. But it's a problem that people think this way, and I would prefer to solve this problem than exacerbate it.

by loceng 14y ago

tptacek 14y ago

I just don't know how to respond to the idea that there's minimal value in removing infected bone fragments from a child's femur, and so I'm not going to pretend that there's a useful discussion you and I can have about this.

loceng 14y ago
Not the situation I was insinuating. That child will not be left on their own, presumably they have a family who will care for them and help them get past it. In a situation where the person is just left to basic care, and has no other future care options is what I was referring to. I should have been more clear.

philwelch 14y ago

To me, it's plainly obvious that people in those other countries need our help more than people in the United States. What other concern is there? "I'd like to help people in MY country" is just a vaguely nationalistic bigotry.

tinco 14y ago
It is not so obvious. There's a lot of suffering going on in your country too. Charity comes from the heart, and where you should direct your love is your own choice. If you feel the people in your country are closer to you, there's no shame in helping them before others. We are human after all.
- philwelch 14y ago
  > If you feel the people in your country are closer to you That's the nationalistic bigotry I was talking about. That's like saying if there was a charity that only helped white people, maybe I should contribute to that because I feel that people of European descent are "closer to me".
  - tinco 14y ago
    It is not bigotry, you are misinformed. Black people contributing to http://blackcharities.net/ http://blackcharities.net/ are not bigots, they merely support those whose fate they identify with.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      Sure, people are more likely to help those they identify with. That means they're more likely to ignore the plight of people they don't identify with. And that is bigotry. And criticizing a charity for not enabling that is also bigotry.
  - loceng 14y ago
    If you did that it could mean you're racist, the act of donating to such a cause doesn't make the act itself bigotry though IMHO. The intent behind a charity is what would be a determining factor for me - not in the end who it ends up helping, though that likely plays a role in most people's decisions.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Nobody is saying you shouldn't give to local people in need. There are clearly many deserving outlets for charity.
  - tinco 14y ago
    Someone is saying giving to local people is nationalist and bigotry, I am merely refuting that.
loceng 14y ago
There are millions and millions of people, tens of millions in North America, that aren't taken care of well or properly. Fixing people when they're bad enough to absolutely need help or they'll die, otherwise letting them suffer, isn't a great attitude to have; Not saying that is your attitude, though it's what our culture currently has in place.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Except it isn't. That's the whole problem--people have natural ingroup/outgroup biases where the suffering and death of people in groups they identify with is given more weight. Wars are criticized, not on the basis of the hundreds or thousands of foreign civilian casualties, but on the basis of thousands of military casualties suffered by our own side. National law is reevaluated on the basis of American children dying in a shooting, but Middle Eastern children dying in a drone strike go ignored. People would rather donate money to save an American from financial hardship than to save a Haitian from death or lifelong crippling, implicitly leaving the Haitian to suffer and die. To some extent this is just human nature. But it's a problem that people think this way, and I would prefer to solve this problem than exacerbate it.