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Let's not all sit here on our laptops, in our comfortable lives and try to understand the political complexities of societies where underage labour is common pl

Let's not all sit here on our laptops, in our comfortable lives and try to understand the political complexities of societies where underage labour is common place. Let's not pretend to understand, and let's not pretend that we all have some high moral duty to "protect" these children. But, while you sip you tripple tall americano while reading forbes magazine pretending to be an expert on poverty and politics take a second to think a 12 year old boy who just lost his families only source of income, only source of food, and only source of life. These people live in a society where the cost of your fucking americano goes a long way. So stop pretending. Because you have no fucking idea.

brockf 14y ago
Along the way, your comment went from the collective "we"/"our" to "you". So I have to ask, do you have any idea?
- richardlblair 14y ago
  No, and I don't pretend to. Unlike too many in this thread. No one here can have any idea what those poor people are going through.
_pmf_ 14y ago
Very sound reasoning. By the very same reasoning, the debate about whether to abolish slavery (in the US) should still be in full rage. After all, who could definitely predict whether those poor people would be able to survive without their masters providing them food and shelter and protecting them from the harsh reality (with hardly a benefit for themselves)? But I'm sure you will be able to demonstrate why this is not an appropriate analogy.
- richardlblair 14y ago
  Enslaving people because of their race in a country that was otherwise prosperous, and hiring children in an economy and society where any thing else is nearly impossible are two entirely different things.
  - king_jester 14y ago
    Slavery was the primary economic engine for a long, long time in US and its originating colonies and it was a primary reason for the economic prosperity and viability of colonies. I agree with you that they are not the same, but both political and social wrongs that can and should be addressed (yes slavery still exists in the US, both de facto and actual i.e. human trafficking).
rscale 14y ago
I found myself thinking of this essay by Mike Turitzin as I read your post: http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/how-to-be-a-naysayer/ http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/how-to-be-a-naysayer/ It's clear, concise, and well worth consideration.
rz2k 14y ago
Regardless of what type of coffee people drink or how they drink it, what is the best way to understand the short and long term impacts of child labor on quality of life? A researcher looking at working conditions alone, without considering whether the alternate is worse conditions on a rural farm or some form of schooling is a sloppy researcher. It is a sloppy researcher, too, who doesn't acknowledge that labor-intensive production is a source of wealth that aids economic convergence for poorer countries. The perspective of children living in poverty informs a comprehensive understanding of the dynamics of child labor and growth economics, but it is not the final word, nor is the child remotely likely to provide any better policy guidance than someone who has the training and tools for sophisticated analysis. Is squeamishness and moral indignation a blunt tool? Much as children can be easily compelled to act against their own economic self interest, squeamishness can lead adults to act counter-productively in pursuit of their loftiest ideals. That doesn't mean that people should just throw up their hands in despair, or defer to the idea that whatever factors lead to current conditions must be ideal factors. These aren't new topics, and there is no shortage of research and findings on when, why, or how different types of labor are a benefit or detriment to poor economies: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=economic+growth+%22child+labor%22+education+substitution+effect+poverty+convergence&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_vis=1 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=economic+growth+%22child...
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brockf 14y ago

Along the way, your comment went from the collective "we"/"our" to "you". So I have to ask, do you have any idea?

richardlblair 14y ago
No, and I don't pretend to. Unlike too many in this thread. No one here can have any idea what those poor people are going through.

_pmf_ 14y ago

Very sound reasoning. By the very same reasoning, the debate about whether to abolish slavery (in the US) should still be in full rage. After all, who could definitely predict whether those poor people would be able to survive without their masters providing them food and shelter and protecting them from the harsh reality (with hardly a benefit for themselves)? But I'm sure you will be able to demonstrate why this is not an appropriate analogy.

richardlblair 14y ago
Enslaving people because of their race in a country that was otherwise prosperous, and hiring children in an economy and society where any thing else is nearly impossible are two entirely different things.
- king_jester 14y ago
  Slavery was the primary economic engine for a long, long time in US and its originating colonies and it was a primary reason for the economic prosperity and viability of colonies. I agree with you that they are not the same, but both political and social wrongs that can and should be addressed (yes slavery still exists in the US, both de facto and actual i.e. human trafficking).

rscale 14y ago

I found myself thinking of this essay by Mike Turitzin as I read your post: http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/how-to-be-a-naysayer/ http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/how-to-be-a-naysayer/ It's clear, concise, and well worth consideration.

rz2k 14y ago

Regardless of what type of coffee people drink or how they drink it, what is the best way to understand the short and long term impacts of child labor on quality of life? A researcher looking at working conditions alone, without considering whether the alternate is worse conditions on a rural farm or some form of schooling is a sloppy researcher. It is a sloppy researcher, too, who doesn't acknowledge that labor-intensive production is a source of wealth that aids economic convergence for poorer countries. The perspective of children living in poverty informs a comprehensive understanding of the dynamics of child labor and growth economics, but it is not the final word, nor is the child remotely likely to provide any better policy guidance than someone who has the training and tools for sophisticated analysis. Is squeamishness and moral indignation a blunt tool? Much as children can be easily compelled to act against their own economic self interest, squeamishness can lead adults to act counter-productively in pursuit of their loftiest ideals. That doesn't mean that people should just throw up their hands in despair, or defer to the idea that whatever factors lead to current conditions must be ideal factors. These aren't new topics, and there is no shortage of research and findings on when, why, or how different types of labor are a benefit or detriment to poor economies: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=economic+growth+%22child+labor%22+education+substitution+effect+poverty+convergence&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_vis=1 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=economic+growth+%22child...

deleted 14y ago

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